ALI, the Greatest

[Clodhopper]

That old white guy was Cus D'Amato, and it is generally agreed that Tyson became a different fighter after his death. That was Mike's prime, and most opponents were beaten by fear alone before they stepped foot in the ring. After he veered away from his earlier training, he became ordinary.
Ali was different, probably the most frustrating opponent in heavyweight history. He also had the talent to back up the mouth.

 

[inyati13]

The man had 9 kids with four different women despite claims of devout religiosity. His faith forbade him from serving his country but did not factor into the boring stuff like being a good husband and father.

From a moral standpoint he isn't in the same pantheon of a Joe Louis. Hard to compare but when Iron Mike lived with that old white guy there wasn't a fighter on earth who could handle him.

But Ali was the greatest self promoter, and the prototype of today's ME! MY! MINE! culture.

John, don't get too hard on us immoral guys. Remember we have to burn in heII for eternity so please allow us some small token of pleasure here on earth.

I would also give Ali a pass on the self promotion. That comes with entertainment. I always enjoy Rush Limbaugh's line about power on loan from God. The "I'm the greatest" rhetoric was part of his brand. Whether he was like that on a personal level....., George Foreman says not.

Personally, I never spent much time thinking about Ali until the last two days.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Talent on loan from God is what Rush says Ron. Actually that applies to us all.

 

[JWBrahman]

Greatness is for others to decide and shines regardless of the self promotion. It is impossible to separate the moral component of greatness.

Years ago while teaching a lesson on leadership I learned the quality most important to 3rd grade students was fairness. You cannot be great to an 8 year old unless you treat others with fairness and respect.

Our culture has broken the social contract. Money does not equal morality in any religious texts across history.

Ali was the prototype of the thin skinned, hypocritical celebrity of the 21st century where evil behavior is the norm. Guys like Ali painted Black America into that tight corner where guilt is never recognized or acknowledged. Forgive me for thinking Ali and the word great should never be used together.

 

[inyati13]

Greatness is for others to decide and shines regardless of the self promotion. It is impossible to separate the moral component of greatness.

Years ago while teaching a lesson on leadership I learned the quality most important to 3rd grade students was fairness. You cannot be great to an 8 year old unless you treat others with fairness and respect.

Our culture has broken the social contract. Money does not equal morality in any religious texts across history.

Ali was the prototype of the thin skinned, hypocritical celebrity of the 21st century where evil behavior is the norm. Guys like Ali painted Black America into that tight corner where guilt is never recognized or acknowledged. Forgive me for thinking Ali and the word great should never be used together.

The scope of your commentary is broad. While well stated, it is commentary. Discussions of what is in the heart and mind of other people is a challenge. And fairness is the word I would focus on. Just like your 8 year old son.

 

[JWBrahman]

A broad commentary with a common theme. But discussions about the nature of ethics and morality have frightened and intrigued humanity for quite some time. It usually does not end well for the person speaking up. Lol
Socrates, Jesus, Gandhi, etc.

Ron, you know i dont have any kids. I'm rich. Still got the same wife i started with, too. Unlike Ali I spent many, many years working at the ranch for runaway kids in Southeast Louisiana and used to mentor runaway kids at our glass company in California, too.

 

[inyati13]

John,

Commentary on Ali has been accumulating for 60 years. It will continue and it will fill oceans. To some, he will be a Saint, to others Satan.

Other than the entertainment this is providing, I doubt that I could care less. It serves to prove why I prefer science and math to social studies. In science and math, the dialog is metric. (I use metric not as a weight and measurement term but in the general meaning of something that is analyzed by established methods.)

What I notice: NO one is as great as some comment they are. Conversely, no one is as evil as some comment they are.

 

[JWBrahman]

2+2=4 all the time, I get it.

If it is "pure science" you never have to ask yourself what the heck u r doin with another man's wife, huh?

 

[JWBrahman]

Just messin with you, Ron.

 

[inyati13]

Just messin with you, Ron.

:tiphat:

Trying to clip pastures. Got my hay in. Still muddy under these hills.

 

[greybeard]

I do not one bit begrudge Ali for not wanting to go to Vietnam. One of my own distant ancestors had a very difficult time with going to war and killing a fellow human being, and it took a lot of soul searching before Alvin York finally did agree to go. It is a heavy burden to live with killing other people, to beleive such that you are violating that 13th commandment, and know there will come a day you're going to stand before your maker and know you will have to answer for it in some way or another. The older I get and the closer I get, the more burdensome that thought has become.

Interesting, that we are prone to draw a rather unfair distinction between those who are ordered to serve (receive draft notice) but chose not to serve--and those who aren't ordered to and don't serve(draft eligible but number not drawn).
I did some research, thru a book called The Evolution of the All-Volunteer Force (Bernard Rostker) for The Rand Corporation and came up with the following numbers:

There were 26,800,000 men draft-eligible between 1964 and 1973, 2,215,000 were drafted and 8,720,000 enlisted. "Drafted" means they received a draft notice to report. "Draft Eligible" means they were of age, had registered for the draft and had not applied for any exemption. Actually drafted and served (1965 - 73) in all capacities, in and out 'of country' : 1,728,344.
So, during this 'era';
2,215,000 (received their notices.)
+8,720,000 (enlisted.)
equals=10,935,000 either enlisted or received a draft notice, iow, they served in the military during that era----out of 26,800,000 draft eligible men.
That means that 15,865,000 draft eligible, red blooded American men neither enlisted nor received a draft notice.
Nearly 16 million military aged American males 'chose' not to serve for a variety of reasons, mostly (from personal observations) because they already had good jobs, didn't want to leave girlfriends, didn't want to be away from mother/father/siblings, or just didn't relish the idea of being shot at.
Who am I, a USMC Vietnam combat veteran, to judge one person for not serving for his stated reasons, while 16 million others made the same choice for any number of reasons?

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pu ... _MG265.pdf
Relative text begins on pg 27.

 

[inyati13]

I do not one bit begrudge Ali for not wanting to go to Vietnam. One of my own distant ancestors had a very difficult time with going to war and killing a fellow human being, and it took a lot of soul searching before Alvin York finally did agree to go. It is a heavy burden to live with killing other people, to beleive such that you are violating that 13th commandment, and know there will come a day you're going to stand before your maker and know you will have to answer for it in some way or another. The older I get and the closer I get, the more burdensome that thought has become.

Interesting, that we are prone to draw a rather unfair distinction between those who are ordered to serve (receive draft notice) but chose not to serve--and those who aren't ordered to and don't serve(draft eligible but number not drawn).
I did some research, thru a book called The Evolution of the All-Volunteer Force (Bernard Rostker) for The Rand Corporation and came up with the following numbers:

There were 26,800,000 men draft-eligible between 1964 and 1973, 2,215,000 were drafted and 8,720,000 enlisted. "Drafted" means they received a draft notice to report. "Draft Eligible" means they were of age, had registered for the draft and had not applied for any exemption. Actually drafted and served (1965 - 73) in all capacities, in and out 'of country' : 1,728,344.
So, during this 'era';
2,215,000 (received their notices.)
+8,720,000 (enlisted.)
equals=10,935,000 either enlisted or received a draft notice, iow, they served in the military during that era----out of 26,800,000 draft eligible men.
That means that 15,865,000 draft eligible, red blooded American men neither enlisted nor received a draft notice.
Nearly 16 million military aged American males 'chose' not to serve for a variety of reasons, mostly (from personal observations) because they already had good jobs, didn't want to leave girlfriends, didn't want to be away from mother/father/siblings, or just didn't relish the idea of being shot at.
Who am I, a USMC Vietnam combat veteran, to judge one person for not serving for his stated reasons, while 16 million others made the same choice for any number of reasons?

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pu ... _MG265.pdf
Relative text begins on pg 27.

GB. Excellent post. I am one of those statistics. In 1968, I went to the draft board and registered for the draft. When I received my draft status, I returned to the draft board and applied for a college deferment. It was granted and held a draft status of 1S. Eligible but deferred for college. In 1970, I was in my second year of ROTC. The lottery system came in about that time. I received the Number 327. That number was out of reach of being called. I never gave service another thought. However, had I not been deferred, I would have served if drafted. That is a distinct difference from being drafted and refusing to serve.

Am I reading you correctly? That you think a deferment is the same as refusing to serve when drafted.

 

[greybeard]

No, I do not think a deferment is quite the same as avoiding the draft. A deferment is similar to being called for jury duty and being excused by the judge for valid reasons, except with the draft, one could pre-empt being called to report to the local board by applying for deferment, preferably- before receiving notice to report. My father had a deferment for part of ww2 for being a farmer and being married until he lost his ag lease and the draft board dropped the marriage deferment I think in '44.
You were not one of the 2,215,000 young men that received a notice to report. For most of the time, you were also not part of the 26,800,000 draft-eligible young men , as you were either deferred or your lottery date was "out of reach".

What I am getting at, is that there is a large amount of angst being directed at Ali and any other "draft dodger" (received notice to report) but refused to take the oath, while 15,865,000 other draft eligible, red blooded American men neither enlisted nor received a draft notice. By their own free will and choice, they 'chose' not to enlist, (for whatever reason) and I'm good with that--but, in that context and in comparison, I'm not so good with the willing quickness to crucify the about 210,000 men who were believed to have violated the Selective Service Act, of which —only 8400 (or 4%) were ever actually convicted.
210 thousand Americans that didn't want to serve and did not vs 15.865 million Americans that also didn't want to serve and did not. One we make a big deal of and the other??????????
There's just some kind of disconnect there.
Don't get me wrong, I hold nothing against those 16 mil who chose not to enlist or those who chose not to accept conscription:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

[inyati13]

GB. Thanks. Your response is outstanding. Lucid and well studied. Just wanted to be sure I understood.

 

[slick4591]

Carlin on Ali

[youtube]https://youtu.be/9sDzNMGNh9U[/youtube]

 

[john250]

I'm retired, so I watched the memorial today. Louisville's YUM center holds 18,000 for church services (U of L basketball). It was packed full. The best eulogy was from the widow, Lonnie. She said "he had TWO parents who loved him. And she acknowledged the white cop who got Ali into boxing "when white cops talk to inner-city kids, good things happen". Props to you, Lonnie Ali.

 

[inyati13]

I'm retired, so I watched the memorial today. Louisville's YUM center holds 18,000 for church services (U of L basketball). It was packed full. The best eulogy was from the widow, Lonnie. She said "he had TWO parents who loved him. And she acknowledged the white cop who got Ali into boxing "when white cops talk to inner-city kids, good things happen". Props to you, Lonnie Ali.

Nice John. Thanks.

 

[Son of Butch]

Alice's Restaurant by Arlo Guthrie

18 minute song monologue based on the true, but bizarre story of how 18 year old Arlo Guthrie was rejected from
being drafted because he had plead guilty to littering on Thanksgiving Day 1965.

Bureaucratically the New York City Induction Draft Board could not distinguish littering from a violent felony and
in real life left him sitting on the Group W bench, ending with their refusal to issue him the moral waiver needed
for him to be drafted into the armed forces....because he was a litterbug. :nod: Your government at work.

It is classic, it is funny and it is true.

 

[inyati13]

Alice's Restaurant by Arlo Guthrie

18 minute song monologue based on the true, but bizarre story of how 18 year old Arlo Guthrie was rejected from
being drafted because he had plead guilty to littering on Thanksgiving Day 1965.

Bureaucratically the New York City Induction Draft Board could not distinguish littering from a violent felony and
in real life left him sitting on the Group W bench, ending with their refusal to issue him the moral waiver needed
for him to be drafted into the armed forces....because he was a litterbug. :nod: Your government at work.

It is classic, it is funny and it is true.

Arlo Guthrie. That is a name you could build a story around. Arlo Guthrie, born 1947, grew up in New York. All he wanted to be was a soldier. When the big day came, he was rejected by the draft board for littering. A truck load of litter!!

PS: I thought Arlo's 18 minute song was a fictional satire although presented in first person, didn't know it was Arlo or that it was true. Arlo was an anti-war advocate in my day. Every college campus in the sixties had anti-war protestors. I remember walking past them sitting on the sidewalk protesting. I hardly noticed them. All I cared about was my class work and getting enough to eat.

 

[melking]

I do not one bit begrudge Ali for not wanting to go to Vietnam. One of my own distant ancestors had a very difficult time with going to war and killing a fellow human being, and it took a lot of soul searching before Alvin York finally did agree to go. It is a heavy burden to live with killing other people, to beleive such that you are violating that 13th commandment, and know there will come a day you're going to stand before your maker and know you will have to answer for it in some way or another. The older I get and the closer I get, the more burdensome that thought has become.

Interesting, that we are prone to draw a rather unfair distinction between those who are ordered to serve (receive draft notice) but chose not to serve--and those who aren't ordered to and don't serve(draft eligible but number not drawn).
I did some research, thru a book called The Evolution of the All-Volunteer Force (Bernard Rostker) for The Rand Corporation and came up with the following numbers:

There were 26,800,000 men draft-eligible between 1964 and 1973, 2,215,000 were drafted and 8,720,000 enlisted. "Drafted" means they received a draft notice to report. "Draft Eligible" means they were of age, had registered for the draft and had not applied for any exemption. Actually drafted and served (1965 - 73) in all capacities, in and out 'of country' : 1,728,344.
So, during this 'era';
2,215,000 (received their notices.)
+8,720,000 (enlisted.)
equals=10,935,000 either enlisted or received a draft notice, iow, they served in the military during that era----out of 26,800,000 draft eligible men.
That means that 15,865,000 draft eligible, red blooded American men neither enlisted nor received a draft notice.
Nearly 16 million military aged American males 'chose' not to serve for a variety of reasons, mostly (from personal observations) because they already had good jobs, didn't want to leave girlfriends, didn't want to be away from mother/father/siblings, or just didn't relish the idea of being shot at.
Who am I, a USMC Vietnam combat veteran, to judge one person for not serving for his stated reasons, while 16 million others made the same choice for any number of reasons?

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pu ... _MG265.pdf
Relative text begins on pg 27.

GB. Excellent post. I am one of those statistics. In 1968, I went to the draft board and registered for the draft. When I received my draft status, I returned to the draft board and applied for a college deferment. It was granted and held a draft status of 1S. Eligible but deferred for college. In 1970, I was in my second year of ROTC. The lottery system came in about that time. I received the Number 327. That number was out of reach of being called. I never gave service another thought. However, had I not been deferred, I would have served if drafted. That is a distinct difference from being drafted and refusing to serve.

Am I reading you correctly? That you think a deferment is the same as refusing to serve when drafted.

I too, was one of those who did not serve. My draft lottery number was 3, I was drafted, and I was booted for health reasons. I was not sad that I couldn't go. I have spent most of my remaining years trying to honor those who did and I still do tt to this day.