a question for commercial operators

[AngusLimoX]

AC - you ever thought of hiring yourself out and getting paid to impose your management on others??

Thanks Jake
ALX
I have actually managed others cattle cow/calf and stocker operations and have a standing job offer for a decent sized ranch (4000 momma cows )to be a manager for them whenever I want it

Yes, and I was on deck to pilot the next space shuttle but the freakin program got cancelled!!

 

[upfrombottom]

I ain't hauling your scrap iron back to missouri too like Jed pays me :lol: :lol:

I can't let you do that, it's all I've got to work with.

 

[AngusLimoX]

The hypocracy and lunacy is unbelievable. Like the pot SCREAMING black at the kettle.

It is understandable that every area in the country faces different challenges in both marketing and management. I think everybody with a brain will realize this. Until your ranting ALX the discussion I was talking about was simply about opportunities and dollars left on the table by the way the SALEBARNS were run and how they affect how people run their operation. I see no reason to further any debate with you as your are about as open to discussion as you accuse AC.

I think you need to sit down with your cousin and have her/him explain some of this thread to you.
Maybe you won't be as frustrated and confused afterwards.

And on the topic, I have held the first post by AC as my anchor point , I don't know where that changed. AC was talking operators, not barns.

 

[Idaman]

Idaman I agree with the weight classes vs. buyers, but what are ditchbank buyers?

The ditchbank buyers are people who might have a large ditch or small canal running through their property and they need something to graze the grass and weeds off of it. It doesn't have to be a ditchbank but just anything that they need grazed off for the summer. They are most active in the spring or early summer as they don't want to over winter anything. They have no idea of the value of what they are bidding on and sometimes even buy out of sympathy for the animal.

A mixed animal sale works best here.

 

[Idaman]

Have run on ranches where it was necessary to run as few as 12 cows per bull but on these ranges NEVER more than 20.

Idaman, why so few?? Poor range??

The answer is both yes and no. If you mean poor range as in dry and very large yes that can be a problem but usually in those cases the bulls will hang around the water holes and catch the cows there. In those cases depending on the temperature the extra bulls may not be needed.

The hardest to handle for me has been very large timbered ranges that have lots of very small meadows with great feed but those meadows may be 2 or 5 miles apart. The meadows aren't large enough to hold very many cows so the need for bulls goes way up. Usually there is a lot of scattered streams so the bulls waiting at the waterhole doesn't work and to ride to scatter the bulls would take weeks not days so you use lots of bull and keep them as young as possible. Just using younger bulls really helps here.

Our range now is about 115 acres per cow per year and the waterhole principle works fine. The major problem is the black bulls just quitting the cows when it gets hot plus their high injury rate. Even with the price discount we have to run some Hereford bulls just to make sure everything is bred. At the end of the years rotation they are almost the only ones left with the cows and up to a point the younger the better.

 

[Angus Cowman]

Thanks Jake
ALX
I have actually managed others cattle cow/calf and stocker operations and have a standing job offer for a decent sized ranch (4000 momma cows )to be a manager for them whenever I want it

Yes, and I was on deck to pilot the next space shuttle but the freakin program got cancelled!!

ALX you may well have been it isn't for me to say but there are others on this board that know me and have seen my operation and they also know the people that have offered me jobs

so you just keep trying and maybe they will let ya on the next one

 

[Angus Cowman]

I try to run a bull per every 25 cows give or take

A condemnation of the Angus breed if I ever saw one!

Doesn't matter what breed I have ran we have always used 25 cows per bull as a rule
would rather have an extra bull or so around in case of injury or some other hazard than to have open cows
plus it also brings my % bred up above the "average" in a 60 day breeding season
it is kinda like an insurance policy

 

[TexasBred]

Have run on ranches where it was necessary to run as few as 12 cows per bull but on these ranges NEVER more than 20.

Idaman, why so few?? Poor range??

The answer is both yes and no. If you mean poor range as in dry and very large yes that can be a problem but usually in those cases the bulls will hang around the water holes and catch the cows there. In those cases depending on the temperature the extra bulls may not be needed.

The hardest to handle for me has been very large timbered ranges that have lots of very small meadows with great feed but those meadows may be 2 or 5 miles apart. The meadows aren't large enough to hold very many cows so the need for bulls goes way up. Usually there is a lot of scattered streams so the bulls waiting at the waterhole doesn't work and to ride to scatter the bulls would take weeks not days so you use lots of bull and keep them as young as possible. Just using younger bulls really helps here.

Our range now is about 115 acres per cow per year and the waterhole principle works fine. The major problem is the black bulls just quitting the cows when it gets hot plus their high injury rate. Even with the price discount we have to run some Hereford bulls just to make sure everything is bred. At the end of the years rotation they are almost the only ones left with the cows and up to a point the younger the better.

Many thanks. Greeat explanation

 

[3waycross]

Have run on ranches where it was necessary to run as few as 12 cows per bull but on these ranges NEVER more than 20.

Idaman, why so few?? Poor range??

The answer is both yes and no. If you mean poor range as in dry and very large yes that can be a problem but usually in those cases the bulls will hang around the water holes and catch the cows there. In those cases depending on the temperature the extra bulls may not be needed.

The hardest to handle for me has been very large timbered ranges that have lots of very small meadows with great feed but those meadows may be 2 or 5 miles apart. The meadows aren't large enough to hold very many cows so the need for bulls goes way up. Usually there is a lot of scattered streams so the bulls waiting at the waterhole doesn't work and to ride to scatter the bulls would take weeks not days so you use lots of bull and keep them as young as possible. Just using younger bulls really helps here.

Our range now is about 115 acres per cow per year and the waterhole principle works fine. The major problem is the black bulls just quitting the cows when it gets hot plus their high injury rate. Even with the price discount we have to run some Hereford bulls just to make sure everything is bred. At the end of the years rotation they are almost the only ones left with the cows and up to a point the younger the better.

Seems like the more things change the more they stay the same. This is not a rant on Angus or Angus bulls, just a simple statement based on my life experience..and yes I own an Angus bull.

My Grandpa told me 50 yrears ago that if you run Angus bulls with your cows you better have a Hereford bull in there to breed the cows while the Angus bulls were fighting, standing in the pond, or laying in the shade.

 

[Idaman]

Seems like the more things change the more they stay the same. This is not a rant on Angus or Angus bulls, just a simple statement based on my life experience..and yes I own an Angus bull.

My Grandpa told me 50 yrears ago that if you run Angus bulls with your cows you better have a Hereford bull in there to breed the cows while the Angus bulls were fighting, standing in the pond, or laying in the shade.[/quote]

Exactly. We even have a small registered Angus herd as well as the Herefords so I am not knocking either one only trying to survive.

When we raise our own bulls it really isn't too important how many cows per bull it takes as we can produce lots. If we run short as has been the case with the Angus lately we simply pick some of our best commercial black cows and AI them to the best bull we can that has the characteristics we want and then raise a lot of bulls.

What other herds can I get the top bulls out of every year that I could possibly afford. 15/16th brothers are no problem either. As you can see I am probably the most unpopular bull buyer there is.

 

[VanC]

The major problem is the black bulls just quitting the cows when it gets hot plus their high injury rate.

Why do they have a higher injury rate? Do they fight more, or are they just not as able to get around in rough country?

 

[Idaman]

The major problem is the black bulls just quitting the cows when it gets hot plus their high injury rate.

Why do they have a higher injury rate? Do they fight more, or are they just not as able to get around in rough country?

All the above. It does seem that the ones of either breed we raise and develop ourselves are much less prone to injury. Forage only and don't pay attention to how they look until they are 5. We say that the Herefords we raise and turn out are only horns and balls for the first 5 years and then they look just like the fattened ones. The same with the Angus except for the horns part. Don't put those two and three year olds that have been used hard out in front of the house when they are in for the winter as they just look awful.

 

[3waycross]

Idaman
Your last two posts have impressed me more than everything else you have posted since you arrived here.

It tells me you have a great grasp of what it takes to run cattle in the west.

 

[VanC]

The major problem is the black bulls just quitting the cows when it gets hot plus their high injury rate.

Why do they have a higher injury rate? Do they fight more, or are they just not as able to get around in rough country?

All the above. It does seem that the ones of either breed we raise and develop ourselves are much less prone to injury. Forage only and don't pay attention to how they look until they are 5. We say that the Herefords we raise and turn out are only horns and balls for the first 5 years and then they look just like the fattened ones. The same with the Angus except for the horns part. Don't put those two and three year olds that have been used hard out in front of the house when they are in for the winter as they just look awful.

Thanks.

 

[Idaman]

Idaman
Your last two posts have impressed me more than everything else you have posted since you arrived here.

It tells me you have a great grasp of what it takes to run cattle in the west.

Thanks. Mr. Threeway. It seems we are all just trying in our own way to survive but when your only income is those old bossies you better know them and become a real student of marketing what they produce for you.

 

[dun]

The major problem is the black bulls just quitting the cows when it gets hot plus their high injury rate.

Why do they have a higher injury rate? Do they fight more, or are they just not as able to get around in rough country?

All the above. It does seem that the ones of either breed we raise and develop ourselves are much less prone to injury. Forage only and don't pay attention to how they look until they are 5. We say that the Herefords we raise and turn out are only horns and balls for the first 5 years and then they look just like the fattened ones. The same with the Angus except for the horns part. Don't put those two and three year olds that have been used hard out in front of the house when they are in for the winter as they just look awful.

In the 80s we ran Brahman bulls during the winter early spring in the canyons (300 acres a pair) because they were all that would cover the tewrritory to get the cows bred. When they were moved down to the summer range w used Angus, Hereford or Cgarolais bulls. Wit the Brahmans is was a bull per 20-25 cows, don;t remember the summer range bulls since I wasn;t involved with that very much but there seemed to alwasy be a lot of bulls running with the cows.

 

[andybob]

Of the British breeds, the Sussex is by far the best for covering distance and heat tolerance, there is plenty of information available on the breed, and one breeder in the USA that I am aware of; http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/catt ... ex/reg.htm

 

[AngusLimoX]

so you just keep trying and maybe they will let ya on the next one

Thanks for the encouragement! :lol2:

In this area, other than financial reasons, I believe there are folks who resent any pressure to change what they do, and many of them are just hanging on until they finally pull the plug.
I think most of the folks starting out in any sort of full time operation realize the importance of targetting a market and producing saleable sets of animals to fill that market.
And if you don't have a market in mind, and no business goals, then you really aren't in business. you are pharting around.

Why do you think folks in your area don't sell more uniform groups?

 

[fargus]

so you just keep trying and maybe they will let ya on the next one

Thanks for the encouragement! :lol2:

In this area, other than financial reasons, I believe there are folks who resent any pressure to change what they do, and many of them are just hanging on until they finally pull the plug.
I think most of the folks starting out in any sort of full time operation realize the importance of targetting a market and producing saleable sets of animals to fill that market.
And if you don't have a market in mind, and no business goals, then you really aren't in business. you are pharting around.

Why do you think folks in your area don't sell more uniform groups?

I'm curious what part of Ontario you hail from? We see a lot of stubborn greybeards around here that don't want to vaccinate, don't want to preg test, etc, etc and complain about what they receive in the fall. The flip side is all the land is paid for and they just need something to complain about while they still make a decent living. Enough large stocker and feedlot operations here that large lots still make the most sense.

 

[Angus Cowman]

Why do you think folks in your area don't sell more uniform groups?

I think alot of it is they can't see the financial part fo running a consistant herd because they just have done it that way and their daddy done it that way and they won't beleive it EVEN if you show them the check
or ol Bessy will raise a 700lb calf every yr the part is they can't or won't figure out that ol bessy's calf only brought $0.90 and ol gerts calf brought $0.90 and the rest of their mismatched rainbow herd brought $.90 and if they would of all been the same color they would have brought 10-20 cents more per lb

and they don't all have to be the same just enough for the barns to be able to run 5 or 10 thru at a time that match

and they also can't see that a uniform set of calves weighing 650lbs will bring more $$ than their 700lb rainbow calves for the same input everytime

I am also not a big fan on the weaning weight hype because if I wean my calves at 6-7 months and the next guy weans his at 8-9 months there is no way for weaning weights to mean anything, the same goes for people that creep and those of us that don't
Alot of these folks are also the ones like Shaz pointed out they don't vaccinate,don't preg check, and don't use any type of mineral and buy a $1000 bull from the sale barn at all they just turn em loose and then check em once a month when they think about it so I guess you would call it Minimal management :lol: