a question for commercial operators

[shaz]

For as many cattle as we have in this area (the USDA estimates there are 58,000 beef cows in this county), the average herd size is 31 head. It is hard to put uniform groups together with so few numbers.

Haven't any of these producers tried networking with their neighbours to make up suitably sized groups of uniform steers?

Good idea, I've tried that but all my neighbors fall into the white salt block, year round calving, check the herd once a month and ....."Forget the fences, Shaz will fix'em".

That said, how do you guys use multiple bulls in the same herd? It's the only way to get my calving season short enough or so it would seem.

 

[fargus]

That said, how do you guys use multiple bulls in the same herd? It's the only way to get my calving season short enough or so it would seem.

In our terminal herd we just run multiple bulls when we need to in one large group. We don't keep any heifers back as replacements out of that group, so it doesn't matter who sired who, except when some of the calves are garbage. I want to cull the right bull.

In the purebred herd we have to segregate. I haven't had an F1 parentstock herd large enough to require multiple bulls, but we can run them all as one group in that scenario too. (Everything is Simmental cows with either a RA or shorthorn bull over the top. All the steers go, all the heifers that make the cut go into the terminal herd with the Char bull over the top, so again, it doesn't REALLY matter who sires who.)

As of this moment, there are two distinct breeding groups getting run at opposite ends of the property. When we get into 3+ breeding herds it's nice to have them on separate chunks of ground. Once breeding season is over they all get collapsed back into one large herd and stay that way until calving is over. It's really only two months of multiple herds and grazing rotations, well worth the headaches for the return. We also do all our vaccinating, de-horning, etc when we are either sorting groups apart, or putting them back together. It's nice to get all the screwing around done at once, then it's done and we're back to running the grazing effectively and keeping an eye on everything to catch problems early.

Any challenge is surmountable IF you really want to beat it. If you don't, you'll find all the reasons not to do it, and leave it at that. Hope that helps more than hinders.

 

[AngusLimoX]

ya'll dont mind angus cowman... he's one of those guys that make a living with cattle so naturally he's got to operate it like a business

It must be mighty uncomfortable being the perfect operator, seeing he has to operate with your head up his arse.
Hope you don't wear that big hat while up there.

 

[AngusLimoX]

I hear on here and talking to others of people complaining about the prices they get for their calves when they sell them
and one of the things I have noticed is that alot of people have inconsistant herds they have a few herf, shothorns, black, limis, char and brangus all mixed together to form a Motley herd of cows therefore they have a mix motley herd of calves and cannot sell their calves in uniform lots
to me if you are going to run cows pick a consistant type and color of cows therefore you will have consistant type and color of calves and they bring a consistant and better price than a mixed herd of calves across the board

All these "people" just not conforming. no good prices for beef, dammit - they need you to tell them how to manage their herds!!

 

[AngusLimoX]

people on here are talking about pre sort sales I AM NOT the barns will sort and sell MY calves in groups it doesn't take much sorting because mine are the same weight,size and type and they don't co mingle mine with anyone elses in the ring

I MY Mine Mine Anyone Elses

I MY Mine Mine Anyone Elses

I MY Mine Mine Anyone Elses

 

[Angus Cowman]

That said, how do you guys use multiple bulls in the same herd? It's the only way to get my calving season short enough or so it would seem.

shaz I try to run at least half brothers together when breeding plus I have a couple sets of full brother bulls

All by bulls are related at least by their grandsires
I try to run a bull per every 25 cows give or take

 

[AngusLimoX]

I try to run a bull per every 25 cows give or take

A condemnation of the Angus breed if I ever saw one!

 

[Idaman]

I try to run a bull per every 25 cows give or take

A condemnation of the Angus breed if I ever saw one!

Having a little trouble following your logic.

Have run on ranches where it was necessary to run as few as 12 cows per bull but on these ranges NEVER more than 20.

 

[Jake]

I believe in a topic that had the possibilities of some sort of sound conversation, you ALX solidified your place on the boards. Quite the thought out, processed comments you've come up with. I do believe my 8 year old cousin would win a debate against your logic and arguments.

 

[plumber_greg]

I've spent my lifetime in business reading people's personalities. Does anyone else notice when someone knows that they make a mistake, and have no way to really correct it, all it takes to make them defensive is for someone to point out what they think is right?ALX, just because you're not comfortable with what you got, it doesn't mean someone else shouldn't be proud of what they have accomplished. I can already guess what you're gonna' say. gs

I believe in a topic that had the possibilities of some sort of sound conversation, you ALX solidified your place on the boards. Quite the thought out, processed comments you've come up with. I do believe my 8 year old cousin would win a debate against your logic and arguments.[/quote

 

[Idaman]

Maybe others have noticed as well but it seems to me that different sale barns have different buyers. Take a sale that is normally on Saturday. The small buyers that work 5 days a week are usually at these sales to buy a few head for their lawn clippings, small pasture, or ditch bank. If you are selling something that might appeal to these buyers then head for that sale with what you think they want. The order buyers will put a floor under the cattle and these small buyers will have to pay a premium for what they get. That premium is what you should be after. This is a great place to get rid of the junk such as blue eyes etc. We call them sympathy buyers.

As you look at selling different weight classes keep this in mind. Starting say at 900 lbs. every time you go down a hundred pounds or so you attract more potential buyers. The 900 pounder basically only has one potential buyer, the feedlot. At 700 some backgrounders will be added to the potential buyer pool so now you have at least two classes of bidders. Drop to 500 and the pasture or stocker people jump in and there should be some premium there. At 400 the ditch bank people will jump in and away you go. This is why, plus the potential, that many light calves bring as much gross per head as heavier ones. At this point it all has to do with the cost of inputs. If you can produce a lighter calf for significantly less money then do it and forgo the bragging rights at the coffee shop all the way to the bank.

 

[papavillars]

Idaman I agree with the weight classes vs. buyers, but what are ditchbank buyers?

 

[TexasBred]

Have run on ranches where it was necessary to run as few as 12 cows per bull but on these ranges NEVER more than 20.

Idaman, why so few?? Poor range??

 

[AngusLimoX]

Having a little trouble following your logic.

Have run on ranches where it was necessary to run as few as 12 cows per bull but on these ranges NEVER more than 20.

Why is that?? My bull can cover 40 cows. Is there a reason some people might have to do things differently?

1982vett has made some real good posts, as have other folks, detailing why it would not be profitable for them to invest in conformity. Other folks have confirmed the fact that buyers are usually quite able to see past skin pigment to buy good cattle.( Maybe not where the brainwashing has had longer to take effect ).

Many operators calve all year round because that is the life situation they are in, other folks have feed or fixed asset situations which preclude any change in how they operate. Calf Clubs can be a real hassle and if there is any extra trucking the profit can be eaten up real quick.

My neighbour has a crayon box herd, VERY low input cows, and I don't know where he drags his char bull out from but he ain't no show stopper. Guess what - HIS cattle top the sales, not the full french or blacks. He's a life long cattleman and he makes money while spending almost nothing to keep 40 cows. ( He will likely be getting close to $1.40 a pound this year ).
But it won't matter how many people describe their situation, with valid reasons for not putting together large lots of perfect cattle, their comments will be ignored.

Or they will receive pathetic, cowardly, personal attacks by AC's baglickers. ( That goes for your cousin too Jake ). :lol2:

And to the other dickweed plumberscrack - I am happy with shipping uniform lots of mostly black cattle, and nomally getting near top price, but I still complain. And please, posting quotes is easy, you've been here long enough, try to put more of an effort into that instead of your silly insults.Hopefully this will add to your skills in reading people! :lol2:

AC - you ever thought of hiring yourself out and getting paid to impose your management on others??

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Have run on ranches where it was necessary to run as few as 12 cows per bull but on these ranges NEVER more than 20.

Idaman, why so few?? Poor range??

-

Idaman obviously has had many years experience in analyzing and 'ratioing' his bulls to the number of bulls per cow, AND the area of range they must cover to successfuly breed as many open cows as possible. That is one of the management protocols that dictates a "Master Breeder" label for a rancher! Sometimes it takes YEARS of determining the 'little things' which make up a successful breeding program for specific ranches and geographic areas. It is an entirely different agenda for a breeder in heavily fertilized Bluegrass/Clover pastures (4-10 cow units/acre) than it is for a Western operation (1 cow/25+acres!) of thin Bluestem, Sagebrush and Cactus! Tough environment requires tough cattle - and tough Ranchers! There is an old Indian proverb (even though I don't know too many "old Indians"!) that says, in effect, "Don't criticise a Brave until you have hunted in his moccasins for a Moon"!

Irish Black bulls are said to be able to cover 50-70 females in an average breeding season on average "Western" rangeland. From my experience with the Irish Blacks breed, I don't doubt it! :shock:

DOC HARRIS

 

[Jake]

The hypocracy and lunacy is unbelievable. Like the pot SCREAMING black at the kettle.

It is understandable that every area in the country faces different challenges in both marketing and management. I think everybody with a brain will realize this. Until your ranting ALX the discussion I was talking about was simply about opportunities and dollars left on the table by the way the SALEBARNS were run and how they affect how people run their operation. I see no reason to further any debate with you as your are about as open to discussion as you accuse AC.

 

[Angus Cowman]

AC - you ever thought of hiring yourself out and getting paid to impose your management on others??

Thanks Jake
ALX
I have actually managed others cattle cow/calf and stocker operations and have a standing job offer for a decent sized ranch (4000 momma cows )to be a manager for them whenever I want it

 

[upfrombottom]

I have actually managed others cattle cow/calf and stocker operations and have a standing job offer for a decent sized ranch (4000 momma cows )to be a manager for them whenever I want it

Hey you can come and work for me anytime, and since your pritty good at figuring, the first thing you can do is figure out how your going to get paid.

 

[Angus Cowman]

I have actually managed others cattle cow/calf and stocker operations and have a standing job offer for a decent sized ranch (4000 momma cows )to be a manager for them whenever I want it

Hey you can come and work for me anytime, and since your pritty good at figuring, the first thing you can do is figure out how your going to get paid.

I ain't hauling your scrap iron back to missouri too like Jed pays me :lol: :lol:

but he does buy my dinner at Haynes I ain't sure that if he is trying to be nice or if he is just trying to give me food poisoning

 

[AngusLimoX]

There is an old Indian proverb (even though I don't know too many "old Indians"!) that says, in effect, "Don't criticise a Brave until you have hunted in his moccasins for a Moon"!
DOC HARRIS

Great proverb Doc!
Sorta been my theme throughout this thread.