126 lb. new born

[Billdevaul]

128 pounds thats a bigun.. wow.. guess it's true everything is bigger in texas... good luck joy and post them pics.. I got one that will calve in dec I cant wait...

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well I calved in January for years and I know all about trying to keep big stupid calves -OF ANY BREED-alive. We always use bulls kind of in the middle of the road borthweight wise but I sure as heck don't discount keeping a heifer because she was born small. Those big growthy heifers that everybody droopls over and dream of the huge calves they can expel through their gigantic pelvis's well they get spayed and sent to the feedlot. That's a myth that a calf has to peform in utero to be able to peform once outside the cow. Your country is the same as my country and I never had any trouble with a calf withstanding a 'rain' that's funny stuff. My cows can have big calves no trouble at all but the thing about increasing BW in your cowherd-sooner or later you'll hit a point where you've pushed it too far. Those big BW heifers do feed out good though.

 

[Aero]

dun:

do you do pelvic measurements on any of the natural sires you have started using? or ae they all home raised too?

 

[dun]

dun:

do you do pelvic measurements on any of the natural sires you have started using? or ae they all home raised too?

We have them on some of the daughters and we depend on daughters calving ease EPDs. Till last year we deidn;t use a bull, all proven AI bulls. Then there too is the discussions with other breeders that I feel are reliable.
Only problem with the talking with folks deal is that I'm the heaviest user of RA bulls in this area that isn;t in the business of selling bulls.

dun

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I know all about trying to keep big stupid calves

And this pretty much brings the debate full circle. The only dumb calf is one thats hard calved. What makes a calf stupid is long labor and exhaustion by the time its born, NOT its physical size. Like I said earlier, my 100 lb+ calves are all 1Us. Unassisted births, calf up immediately and nursing. Not a sign of a stupid calf.

Rod

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well anybody who wants big calves born in cold weather isn't going to listen to common sense so have at it sunshine. If you think that only calves from tough calvings are hard to get going......just shakes his head. So if the opnly thing that makes a calf stupid is a hard calving how can you say smaller calves have less vigour-your hanging yourself with your own rope here. I've never had a bull customer or an A'I customer in ANY breed ask me for a bull that throws bigger birthweights-like I said you can ride that train but eventually it will derail.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

So if the opnly thing that makes a calf stupid is a hard calving how can you say smaller calves have less vigour-

I didn't say less vigour, I said small calves were less resistant to cold and wet. Cold resistance is only one part of vigour. You are the one argueing that big calves have LESS vigour, which I'm saying is simply not true. Easy calving, proper nutrition, good hair coat and body depth determine whether a calf is vigorous or not. How can you possibly argue against that, "sunshine"?

Obviously small calves are generally easy calving and any size calf can have proper nutritrion. Obviously any size calf can have good hair coat. Where my bigger calves have small ones beat all to hell is on depth of body. NR, I've winter calved 70 lbers and I've winter calved 100 lbers. I _know_ which ones are better at resisting cold.

Rod

 

[MikeC]

I've never had a bull customer or an A'I customer in ANY breed ask me for a bull that throws bigger birthweights-like I said you can ride that train but eventually it will derail.

I have several bull customers that are not worried about BW's at all. In fact, one commercial guy who feeds everything he raises uses the highest BW Char bulls he can find.

He wants his calves to average 100 lbs., and hardly ever loses one.

He has a bunch Beefmaster X Brangus cows that could calve an elephant. He has won the state award for several years for the highest 205 adjusted weaning weights. Surprisingly grade well and hang a 900-950 lb carcass at a fast rate with a great cost of gain.

I somewhat agree with Rod and NR light birthweights we are going to perpetuate some calving trainwrecks down the road. On the other hand, we will make the cows bigger. I guess those bigger birthweights should all go to slaughter to eliminate problems in the future.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well I think 'll leave Rod the market share for those big BW heifer calves-I can't believe that anybody who has run many cattle can think that a 110 pound heifer calf will grow up to be an easier calving heifer than an 80 or 90 pound calf. She'll be bigger when mature but I'll bet she'll have a bigger calf also-you keep perpetuating those genetics and it sooner or later becomes finite. I call B.S. on the cold weather deal Rod I've calved alot of cows in January-you can B'S the fans don't try and B'S the players. I've yet to see a wreck from using calving ease cattle but I've seen dozens from the other end. But like I said I'll forgo that market to Rod he can have it.

 

[rockridgecattle]

i'm probably going to get my self mixed up here so bear with me please.
When we first started with the father in law he was charlois/herford sim/ mixed/ Bred to Char bull. Now that we are the herd owners we went angus. We constantly went with 70 - 80 # birth weights on our bulls for cows. We kept cattle back from them for replacements. Now our we see our cows are somewhat smaller, producing slightly smaller calves. Now in the past couple of years we have started to introduce angus bulls with the 90# for our cows and 70-77 for our heiffers. this year we pulled more than normal (usually no pulls with a puller).
But, because these bulls were all proven on our cows, we could not atribute this to the bulls and cows. it went back to the feed. We had a nasty and i will say it again, nasty cold snap that was almost 6 weeks long of -30 plus with wind chills into the -40. We went through alot of feed to keep them warm. This was in the last trimester when the calf grow the biggest. Ouch was all i hav to say. Once we got the heads out then the cow did the rest, luckly.
but for some reason the later calves they were more the normal size. go figure.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Well I think 'll leave Rod the market share for those big BW heifer calves-I can't believe that anybody who has run many cattle can think that a 110 pound heifer calf will grow up to be an easier calving heifer than an 80 or 90 pound calf. She'll be bigger when mature but I'll bet she'll have a bigger calf also-you keep perpetuating those genetics and it sooner or later becomes finite. I call B.S. on the cold weather deal Rod I've calved alot of cows in January-you can B'S the fans don't try and B'S the players. I've yet to see a wreck from using calving ease cattle but I've seen dozens from the other end. But like I said I'll forgo that market to Rod he can have it.

Now you're adding weight onto my animals. I'll repeat: I like 100 lb BWs on my cows. I think a 1200 lb cow should be able to handle more without having trouble, but I target my cows for 100 lb calves and my heifers for 90 lb calves. Any less and I think you're losing pounds and money. If the bull is coarse, then I'll think about dropping some birthweight, but I prefer not to see coarse shoulders on a bull.

Its also PURE fallacy that high BWs mean increasing frame size. Frame size is totally independent of birthweight. There is absolutely no genetic correlation between the two.

And as far as BSing goes, I've no need to BS, NR. I've nothing to sell anyone on here. No semen. No bulls. No heifers. What I do know is that I make more money per cow than Sask average, my annual calving rate is 98% and higher, my weaning rate is 96% and higher, and the trainwreck that the jackrabbit breeders predicted for me 6 years ago still hasn't happened. The sky hasn't fallen, and my cows are still spitting out 8% - 10% of their body weight in calves each and every Feb/Mar just like clockwork.

Rod

 

[Alice]

BS, no BS...who cares!

First time around, heifers shouldn't have that kind of strain put on them. Kind of like us human moms...the more ya' have the easier.

And, that's just the 2 cents of a woman who had 1...who has a daughter that's had 4...and she's built like a willow tree.

Alice

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well I didn't realize you'd been in the cattle business six years-I take back everything I said. I've got a saddle horse can probably run 30 mph but I don't ride around at that speed just because I can. I've just seen too much misery on too many places to condone those kind of cattle. My cows can have big calves too but by the time they get their hide off at the kill plant they aren't making me any more money. But you do what you do-when you do it-more power to you. I'm done with this debate-almost got a sunburn out tagging calves-I'll take that over frostbite any day.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Well I didn't realize you'd been in the cattle business six years-

NR, sarcasm doesn't suit your memory. As I mentioned earlier, I've been in the cattle business for 30. I tried breeding jackrabbits a few years back. I was convinced by the smooth talking salesmen that the smaller calves would catch up to the bigger ones by the end of the backgrounding phase. After a few years I realized that it was BS and a money losing prospect, so I quit with it and went back to raising proper sized calves 6 years ago. At that time, it was predicted the sky was going to fall in on my world and that I'd have a dead pile a mile high. Ain't happened yet. It didn't happen before I tried breeding the jackrabbits. And it hasn't happened to any of the other breeders I know who realize that a calf doesn't have to be light to be born easily.

As you say, I'm done with this debate. When sarcasm moves in on a debate, theres nothing useful left to discuss. Good day.

Rod

 

[Northern Rancher]

Have at it!!!!

 

[sainty01]

This conversation seems to have run it's course, however, I felt inclined to throw in my two cents.

I wade into this discussion for a reason though. As a seedstock producer I am continually concerned by the wants/needs of numerous potential customers; these are the ranchers that describe the females the bull will be bred to as:
Cows, 6 or 7 years old, large framed, 1300+ pounds, gelbvieh or charolais or fresian or simmental breeding....after describing their herd they proceed to tell me they are only interested in bulls that had an actual bw of 70 or less who has a negative bw epd.............

In my humble opinion:

Repeated selection for low birthweight throughout our industry is and will yield females that are incapable of calving unassisted.

If you have the resources/labor available you should weigh your calves. No one can eyeball with enough accuracy to know what their calves weigh with any certainty if a scale is not involved.

EVERYONE needs to be familiar with pelvic measurements and should be using this data extensively in selecting replacement females.

Research has PROVEN a direct relationship between birthweight and pelvic size. As with all traits in cattle production; extremes are what get producers in trouble. (120+ calves are extreme, but no more extreme than 50lb calves.)

In spite of the marketing dollars that have been spent to convince me other wise, I have yet to witness a birth to weaning or birth to yearling, "Spread" bull that consistantly sired low birth calves that measured up to the heavier birth calves at weaning or yearling.

Opinion, Opinion, Opinion, The follow is just an opinion.....

If you're calving out a group of heifers who, as a group, are unable to have 90 pound calves unassisted you need to change the genetics of your herd.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Of all the problems that face our industry-too much calving ease isn't one of them. If any of you can read I've said repeatedly that 70-90 pound calves will keep you in the cattle business a long long time. Fewer people are running more cows with less large animal vets available. My cowherd can have big calves-do I use genetics to force them too not on your life-do I keep the big BW heifers-been there done that-not going to do it again. Just had an interesting discussion with the lot where I feed my Jackrabbits as Rod so fondly refers to them-they going out at just over 1300 pound after shrink and gave us a .15/lb premium on the grid. I've weighed 100's of my own calves-had lots over 100 pounds-retained ownership on almost every calf born the last twenty years. You don't need to push the birthweight deal to raise heifers that can calve or cattle that will perform. If you want to raise the bigger end of cows and calve out big calves all power to you-but don't set yourselves up as saviors of the cattle business-because quite frankly your not. Pelvic measurements really don't prove much-the heifers with bigger pelvis's usually end up having a bigger BW calf-not necessarily unnassisted.

 

[auctionboy]

If someone can pick the correct heifers that will safely calf bigger calves then more power to them. If someone wants to be on the safe side that is good also. Whatever anybody wants to do with there own herd is fine with me. I don't care because I don't see any future problems in the industry coming from people going one way or another. I picked up this was two commercial guys discussing this, but the future genetics in ten or twenty years are going to come from registered herds and if someones 100-200 cow herd developes problems it wont hurt the beef industry as a whole at all.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

If you're calving out a group of heifers who, as a group, are unable to have 90 pound calves unassisted you need to change the genetics of your herd.

Many cattlemen need to print this line out, and paste it up on their ranch somewhere. It should be in a bible somewhere.

I think its odd and indicative of a problem in the industry that when I target for 90lb BWs on heifers and 100lb BWs on cows that I'm considered "extreme". My cows will easily give birth to 130 lb calves, so targetting for 100 lb BWs I thought was being rather conservative.

Unfortunately Sainty, I see too many 12 - 1300 lb _cows_ (much less 9 weight heifers) out there who can't do 90 lb calves unassisted and this is where these 50 and 60 lb extreme BW bulls are finding a home. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think those light BW bulls are nothing more than a band-aid fix to a much larger problem.

Rod

 

[Texas Gal]

A small, LIVE calf is always worth more than a huge, dead calf.