New bull time

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simme said:
Thanks for the detailed post showing your thought process. I agree with your thoughts. I was hoping to get a little more reasoning from Travlr on his strongly held beliefs. The use of a crossbred bull is probably not the best plan for most herds. But there are some differences in crossbred bulls. I would see little if any benefit of a Chianina-highland cross bull for instance. But to decide that all crossbred bulls are bad simply because they are crossbred - that might show as much bias as reasoning. I always enjoy reading a different opinion when it is presented with a logical set of reasons.

Part of the topic is consistency and part is heterosis. Those two things probably do not go together. A person could have a very consistent set of calves, but they could be consistently bad. Max heterosis probably does not give max consistency. It is not black and white.

I think the thought process for many is from the view of a commercial herd with multiple breed cows. And a strongly held belief that breed associations should only exist for the purpose of breed purity instead of data collection, pedigree documentation and giving choices to producers. But there are also many seedstock producers that are producing and using in their herds these "crossbred" bulls with considerable success and acceptance. And the demand is there.

Some here even believe that any black simmental, limousin, or gelbvieh are really angus, so maybe those simangus bulls are purebred anyway.
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Actually maximum heterosis and maximum consistency occur at the F1 cross. If you cross a horned Hereford with a black Angus, the resulting calves will all be heterozygous black, polled and white faced. Crossing an F1 black baldy to an F1 black baldy will result in 64 different genotypes and 8 different phenotypes.
A big reason why the tiger stripe is more popular than a braford is that it has all the Brahman genes and all the Hereford genes. Where as the braford has had its genetics reduced.
 
Angus and Hereford both have closed herd books. That still hasn't stopped other breed genetics from likely getting in at points over the years.
It's been 25 years or so since I was in the world of registered Charolais. If I remember correctly they had a breeding up program for females. The idea was to breed to a registered Charolais bull each generation from 1/2-3/4-7/8-15/16. At the point that a female was 15/16 she then could have a calf considered purebred status if sired by a registered Charolais bull. The bulls had to be the next generation beyond 15/16 to be registered. Therefore the crossbred component is not the goal of the Charolais breed. Building up to purebred status is the end goal and those percentage cows are not regarded as a marketing strategy of any kind and are are not promoted.
From what I understand some breed registries like Chianina only require a very low percentage of Chianina.
Each breed makes their own decision about what they accept.
In light of the black hide movement, I personally think that Simmentals, Limousins etc did what they had to do in marketing percentage animals.
Even though I'm not as keen on buying them, they have kept a market share for their respective breeds and especially with Simmentals they have really made a resurgence that I don't think they would have otherwise to the level they have reached.
It comes down to preference as much as performance. Some people will argue that there is no need to crossbreed at all.
Some Angus folks promote the idea of straight bred Angus even for commercial terminal. Some believe in 2 way cross some 3way cross and some composites.
I have my theory on what works best, but it's not as cut and dry simple there are lots of variables, that just have to be figured out for each program.
While I don't really want to buy cross bred bulls if the other breeds can take advantage of the Angus train and gain market share I understand the reasoning behind it even if I don't particularly like the concept.
Several years ago I had a thing going where I sold bred heifers. I raised a few but bought most. Most were commercial black. On the sale description when we sold them they were usually listed as Angus or Angus cross, early in by the sales reps.
As time went on some consignors were breeding their heifers to Simmental bulls instead of Angus. I always used Angus bulls. Then more and more of the heifers were listed as SimAngus instead of Angus cross, and they usually did well in the sale. A lot of ours were Hereford Angus cross they we're listed as BWF. I kind of found a niche with the BWF bred to Angus bulls.
Occasionally I would have sone commercial crosses like SimAngus and apparently a large local farm that started a nationally known beef branded beef product years ago bought some of our heifers and called to inquire if I had any SimAngus bulls for sale. I wasn't raising bulls at the time just a few registered Angus for my own use.
I felt a sense of pride and surprised at the same time that they would consider buying a bull from me. We figured they must have really liked the SimAngus.
Limousin and Gelbvieh have both stayed on the scene with Limflex and Balancers but not to the level of Simmental.
If buying any of those breeds, personally I'd go with straight Simmental, Limousin or Gelbvieh. Honestly I don't really care for even purebred black Limousins or Gelbviehs I prefer the red. I like the black Simmentals ok though.
I guess I'm just saying there's something for everybody and options are good as opposed to just all Angus everything.
 
puzzled in oregon said:
This heifer is out of a purebred Murray Grey bull. Should I be allowed to register her as a percentage
Murray Grey ?
View attachment 38086

If I cross her back to a purebred Murray Grey, her heifer(?) calf would be eligible to be registered as a 3/4(75%) Murray Grey.
If I crossed the 3/4 heifer back to the Murray Grey, her heifer(?)calf would be eligible to be registered as a purebred Murray Grey.
If I did my percentages correctly.
Click to expand...
Rules state the cattle must be solid in color. No red can be registered andNo spots. Even for a percentage
 
I assure you it was not, is not something I would even consider doing. I have to much respect for the Murray Grey's.

What I have seen is a black baldie registered as a percentage Murray Grey.
Two generations out from this heifer, can a solid colored heifer bred back to a Murray Grey Bull be registered as a percentage
Murray Grey, or does the out cross have to be a registered animal ?
 
MurraysMutts said:
Anybody know anything about this mumbo jumbo? Top one don't look too bad...
View attachment 42277
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Top one is DOB Oct 2022. 35th percentile calving ease and weaning weight, low marbling, big ribeye, very moderate milk, should be fairly easy keeping. Decent weaning weights probably the best thing about him. Foot score EPDs only 85th percentile if those have any accuracy. Probably not a bad bull if he can walk and the price is right.
 
MurraysMutts said:
Anybody know anything about this mumbo jumbo? Top one don't look too bad...
View attachment 42277
Click to expand...
My 2 cents, for what it's worth: Earlier in this thread, you had mentioned you were thinking about a BWF Simm, or a black Hereford bull, because you are partial to black baldies. With your herd, you'd better make sure either kind you get, is homozygous for both black and polled. IMO, the BWF Simm would be the better choice for you, for 2 reasons. The first would be with Hereford or Herf-mixed cows, or cows that you may not know what all they are exactly, the BH might throw calves with too much white in the wrong places. 2nd, a SImm could possibly give you 30- 50 lbs more weight at weaning. If prices hold, that could give you $100-$150 or more per calf when you sell. You said you have 20 cows total now? That's $3k or better per year. Or heck...with two herds, try both! I have read and seen reports all day about how there is about to be a substantial drop in cattle prices, due to the panhandle cattle being sent to market. All report say this will be a temporary, short term drop, followed soon by a dramatic increase in prices, shooting even higher than they have been this year. It might work out that you can get the 2 bulls at a good price soon, and after you get some calves on the ground, sell the one you don't like for a nice profit. Man, wouldn't it be great to have a crystal ball?!!
 
Can you share the reports of lower prices. Oklahoma City and El Reno today show higher prices. Woodward which is closer but on Thursday showed higher last week.
 
GoWyo said:
Top one is DOB Oct 2022. 35th percentile calving ease and weaning weight, low marbling, big ribeye, very moderate milk, should be fairly easy keeping. Decent weaning weights probably the best thing about him. Foot score EPDs only 85th percentile if those have any accuracy. Probably not a bad bull if he can walk and the price is right.
Click to expand...
Thanks @GoWyo
Just the info I was looking for!! So he's a heifer bull? With decent growth?

Do u have any thoughts on the second bull??
I certainly appreciate you taking the time to help me!! The sale will be fast paced, and while I plan on looking beforehand, there usually isn't anyone there with this type of info until they get to the ring.

Some things are changing for me. I'll only be having 12 to 15 cows total. I'll have a handful of MY cows that I won't be selling right away. I DO have some cows that'll need bred in the meantime (trader cows) altho I may keep one or two of them as well. I plan on selling some pairs. Or possibly just holding what I got for the summer. Meaning they WILL need bred. And of coarse my keeper cows will need bred as well. I don't need a super fancy bull. And with some mixed cows I'm leaning more towards a solid black bull. I will be keeping no heifers. But I'd also like to rest easy knowing I don't have a giant calf coming.

@Warren Allison I still like the idea of a baldy bull of some type. We will see what else turns up for this sale. I really don't have time to travel a lot right now and this sale and another one is close to me.
We will see how it plays
 
MurraysMutts said:
Thanks @GoWyo
Just the info I was looking for!! So he's a heifer bull? With decent growth?

Do u have any thoughts on the second bull??
I certainly appreciate you taking the time to help me!! The sale will be fast paced, and while I plan on looking beforehand, there usually isn't anyone there with this type of info until they get to the ring.

Some things are changing for me. I'll only be having 12 to 15 cows total. I'll have a handful of MY cows that I won't be selling right away. I DO have some cows that'll need bred in the meantime (trader cows) altho I may keep one or two of them as well. I plan on selling some pairs. Or possibly just holding what I got for the summer. Meaning they WILL need bred. And of coarse my keeper cows will need bred as well. I don't need a super fancy bull. And with some mixed cows I'm leaning more towards a solid black bull. I will be keeping no heifers. But I'd also like to rest easy knowing I don't have a giant calf coming.

@Warren Allison I still like the idea of a baldy bull of some type. We will see what else turns up for this sale. I really don't have time to travel a lot right now and this sale and another one is close to me.
We will see how it plays
Click to expand...
I understand . Most everything I buy these days, are for people who can't go to the sale. Or can't go look at cattle for a private treaty deal, due to time and/or distance. I tell you what though, there are a few on here that I would buy from in confidence, sight unseen ( well , except for a pic or vid). There are others, but right now I'd buy an Angus from @gizmom , or a Simm from @simme or @Jeanne - Simme Valley without hesitation. NY, SC and FL are a long ways away from you, though. But, you have a knack for finding good cattle at good prices, so good lck at those sales. When will you need a bull? How much time before it comes down to "I need one NOW!"?
 
Warren Allison said:
I understand . Most everything I buy these days, are for people who can't go to the sale. Or can't go look at cattle for a private treaty deal, due to time and/or distance. I tell you what though, there are a few on here that I would buy from in confidence, sight unseen ( well , except for a pic or vid). There are others, but right now I'd buy an Angus from @gizmom , or a Simm from @simme or @Jeanne - Simme Valley without hesitation. NY, SC and FL are a long ways away from you, though. But, you have a knack for finding good cattle at good prices, so good lck at those sales. When will you need a bull? How much time before it comes down to "I need one NOW!"?
Click to expand...
Don't really NEED him til end of May
That'll put everyone to calve starting in March. I don't do February calving. Got EXTREMELY LUCKY with some bought cows this year tho. This February was an exceptionally warm one.
 
MurraysMutts said:
Thanks @GoWyo
Just the info I was looking for!! So he's a heifer bull? With decent growth?

Do u have any thoughts on the second bull??
I certainly appreciate you taking the time to help me!! The sale will be fast paced, and while I plan on looking beforehand, there usually isn't anyone there with this type of info until they get to the ring.

Some things are changing for me. I'll only be having 12 to 15 cows total. I'll have a handful of MY cows that I won't be selling right away. I DO have some cows that'll need bred in the meantime (trader cows) altho I may keep one or two of them as well. I plan on selling some pairs. Or possibly just holding what I got for the summer. Meaning they WILL need bred. And of coarse my keeper cows will need bred as well. I don't need a super fancy bull. And with some mixed cows I'm leaning more towards a solid black bull. I will be keeping no heifers. But I'd also like to rest easy knowing I don't have a giant calf coming.

@Warren Allison I still like the idea of a baldy bull of some type. We will see what else turns up for this sale. I really don't have time to travel a lot right now and this sale and another one is close to me.
We will see how it plays
Click to expand...
He's in the 50th percentile on birthweight. I don't think he would be a sleep all night heifer bull, but could serve as an all around bull if you keep an eye on your heifers. A heifer with some BW in her background might have an issue, but I would t be afraid of him.

The second bull I don't care for the swayback pose, but maybe just a bad pic. He looks pretty stout. Mediocre calving ease with a little extra birthweight and decent carcass value on RE and Marbling, especially for SAV on the sire side. Top 20% weaning weight and top 10% yearling weight, but average mature weight and height. Not a good prospect for heifers as his sire is bottom 95% on calving ease direct and birthweight, but should be a pretty good bull on cows.
 
MurraysMutts said:
Don't really NEED him til end of May
That'll put everyone to calve starting in March. I don't do February calving. Got EXTREMELY LUCKY with some bought cows this year tho. This February was an exceptionally warm one.
Click to expand...
Cold isn't usually a problem, Murray. It's wet and/or wind that kills more calves. We did February calving in South Dakota and most people around us did that or January.
 
GoWyo said:
He's in the 50th percentile on birthweight. I don't think he would be a sleep all night heifer bull, but could serve as an all around bull if you keep an eye on your heifers. A heifer with some BW in her background might have an issue, but I would t be afraid of him.

The second bull I don't care for the swayback pose, but maybe just a bad pic. He looks pretty stout. Mediocre calving ease with a little extra birthweight and decent carcass value on RE and Marbling, especially for SAV on the sire side. Top 20% weaning weight and top 10% yearling weight, but average mature weight and height. Not a good prospect for heifers as his sire is bottom 95% on calving ease direct and birthweight, but should be a pretty good bull on cows.
Click to expand...
Thanks so much again!! The pose in that picture is what I didn't like either. Looks sway backed. I would imagine it's just a bad picture but who knows til I get there.

Sure am excited to see more bulls posted for the sale. I know there is some char/angus bulls consigned. But a crossbred I'm very unsure of.

If it were you.....
and no heifers to breed. (I don't plan on it)
what would u do?
Travlr said:
Cold isn't usually a problem, Murray. It's wet and/or wind that kills more calves. We did February calving in South Dakota and most people around us did that or January.
Click to expand...
That's a typical Oklahoma February. And it usually only lasts one or two weeks (but when!) Bitter cold. WIND!!! And temp swings from rain to freezing rain to snow and ice. It's just pretty darn brutal usually. Only month of the year I avoid.

The last one I only had one calving issue. My buddy had several calves in his garage in town it was so brutal. And he still lost a couple.

Nope. I'm done with that mess. It's easily avoided. 😆
 
MurraysMutts said:
Don't really NEED him til end of May
That'll put everyone to calve starting in March. I don't do February calving. Got EXTREMELY LUCKY with some bought cows this year tho. This February was an exceptionally warm one.
Click to expand...
Well, you know @simme has those 2 brothers to the two that @kenny thomas and @ClinchValley86 got, and they look just as good if not better. But, I think he said he'd be ready to sell them June or July, though.

Ever since I saw those bulls last year, and the one @Jeanne - Simme Valley used for cleanup last year, I was wishing we had tried Simms on the Corriente herd. But I thought I was out of that business, til I bought that herd back last month. The man I sold them to in 22, had let them get all out of whack on calving, because he had just one sale barn Angus bull on 120 cows. They were calving in January, and will through May, maybe into June. I don't want the whole herd calving in February anymore..it does no good to carry 100 calves at a time to a sale down here. But hope to tighten it up to maybe a 100-120 day calving window. Carrying 30 to the sale at a time would do better for us. Right now, I have the one Brangus bull I bought last month in there with them ( sold the other two), but end of March, Scott's brother is bringing us a homo for black and polled Sim bull, and another one of his Simm/ChiAngus/Brangus " creations". We will keep them in til Memorial Day or so. and let my Brangus clean up the stragglers. I would have just as soon have gotten 2 Simms myself, but the one will breed enough of them to tell how well they do on Corr cows.

The man I got up the herd of Braford and f1 Br x Herf for , turned SimmAngus bulls in with them, in January, rather than the traditional tried-and-true Angus. Lord, 50-something years ago, if someone had told I would become a Simmental bull advocate ,I would have asked them, what they had been smoking!! LOL
 

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