New bull time

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I realize they were bred up from Angus x Shorthorn, but was disappointed to see the Murray Grey are going this route.

Percentage Recording
The AMGA still has an "open herdbook". That is, members can record cattle that only have one
Murray Grey parent. These "percentage" cattle can be up bred to "purebred" status - greater than
7/8 Murray Grey blood for females and greater than 15/16 Murray Grey blood for bulls.
Cattle bred up from registered Angus base will be accepted in the "International Evaluation
Purebred" category, making them eligible for export to Australia, New Zealand and Great
Britain. Cattle originating from other than registered Angus base are considered "North
American Purebreds" and can be exported into the Canadian registry.
 
simme said:
We probably don't agree. In what ways are simangus not reliable? Please address specific traits that are not reliable. Birth weight, calving ease, growth, fertility, carcass traits, longevity, structure, efficiency, milk, etc.

Are calves sired by an angus bull bred to simmental cows more consistent (or more profitable) than calves sired by a simangus bull bred to those same simmental cows? Say the simangus bull is a son of the angus bull so that the genetics are closer. Any specific experience with simangus trait reliability compared to pure angus or pure simmental? Or just a general thing?

There are a lot of simangus sired cattle. Where is the "mistake'? Are the simangus sired calves inferior in performance, profitability, or what?
Click to expand...
Yup, we don't agree. Our experience and the way we perceive results are different. If you are satisfied with your results then it's fine for you, and if I was getting the results you are getting I would probably find flaws and develop ways to make the improvements I find valuable. You would do the same if you were getting the results I got. I've never seen a perfect bull for every cow, but I've seen better results using pure bred bulls covering commercial cows.

This is one of those marginally weak opinions. I've seen some good results with cross bred bulls too. There are always outliers. I just don't think registration should be applied to crossbred animals.
 
@simme not Travlr but Around here, even though it has changed and a lot of herds are predominantly black cattle, but still a lot of very mixed breed herds some Angus, Herefords, BWF, Charolais and all kinds of Charolais crosses, and a sometimes a few of a lot of other things.
In my opinion the best way to move toward uniform calves from a herd like that is to use purebred bulls.
I'm not going as far as to say that there aren't situations in which a SimAngus or other crossbred bull wouldn't be ok.
My understanding is that heterosis is best achieved to the most benefit with an initial 2 way or F1 cross then a 3way cross for the next generation.
Such as F1 Angus Hereford cross with the next generation sired by Charolais bulls, or F1 Hereford x Brahman with the next generation bred to Angus bulls.
I can see a situation of a fairly uniform group of Angus cows and using a SimAngus bull on them.
In my herd we have mostly Hereford, Hereford x Angus, Angus type cows.
I prefer purebred bulls of a different breed than all or a majority of the cows to benefit from hybrid vigor.
I prefer a purebred Simmental to a SimAngus to achieve that because they are an outcross breed for my herd,
I not saying that SimAngus won't sire good calves but I don't see crosses working the best in every herd.
I'm currently using a 3/4 Angus 1/4 Hereford bull. Home raised he was a good individual and cheap because I didn't have to buy him and just kept him on hand in case something went wrong and we needed a replacement to step in for one of our registered bulls.
He sires calves more consistent in phenotype than one might think, but with mixed cows there is some variation, outside of color.
I would never buy a crossbred bull like him whether it be F1 BWF, SimAngus, Limflex etc.
If I had all reliably straight bred Angus or Hereford cows in other words cows of one breed, then I may have a different view of purchasing SimAngus.
 
This heifer is out of a purebred Murray Grey bull. Should I be allowed to register her as a percentage
Murray Grey ?
IMG_4193 1.JPG

If I cross her back to a purebred Murray Grey, her heifer(?) calf would be eligible to be registered as a 3/4(75%) Murray Grey.
If I crossed the 3/4 heifer back to the Murray Grey, her heifer(?)calf would be eligible to be registered as a purebred Murray Grey.
If I did my percentages correctly.
 
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Ky hills said:
@simme not Travlr but Around here, even though it has changed and a lot of herds are predominantly black cattle, but still a lot of very mixed breed herds some Angus, Herefords, BWF, Charolais and all kinds of Charolais crosses, and a sometimes a few of a lot of other things.
In my opinion the best way to move toward uniform calves from a herd like that is to use purebred bulls.
I'm not going as far as to say that there aren't situations in which a SimAngus or other crossbred bull wouldn't be ok.
My understanding is that heterosis is best achieved to the most benefit with an initial 2 way or F1 cross then a 3way cross for the next generation.
Such as F1 Angus Hereford cross with the next generation sired by Charolais bulls, or F1 Hereford x Brahman with the next generation bred to Angus bulls.
I can see a situation of a fairly uniform group of Angus cows and using a SimAngus bull on them.
In my herd we have mostly Hereford, Hereford x Angus, Angus type cows.
I prefer purebred bulls of a different breed than all or a majority of the cows to benefit from hybrid vigor.
I prefer a purebred Simmental to a SimAngus to achieve that because they are an outcross breed for my herd,
I not saying that SimAngus won't sire good calves but I don't see crosses working the best in every herd.
I'm currently using a 3/4 Angus 1/4 Hereford bull. Home raised he was a good individual and cheap because I didn't have to buy him and just kept him on hand in case something went wrong and we needed a replacement to step in for one of our registered bulls.
He sires calves more consistent in phenotype than one might think, but with mixed cows there is some variation, outside of color.
I would never buy a crossbred bull like him whether it be F1 BWF, SimAngus, Limflex etc.
If I had all reliably straight bred Angus or Hereford cows in other words cows of one breed, then I may have a different view of purchasing SimAngus.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the detailed post showing your thought process. I agree with your thoughts. I was hoping to get a little more reasoning from Travlr on his strongly held beliefs. The use of a crossbred bull is probably not the best plan for most herds. But there are some differences in crossbred bulls. I would see little if any benefit of a Chianina-highland cross bull for instance. But to decide that all crossbred bulls are bad simply because they are crossbred - that might show as much bias as reasoning. I always enjoy reading a different opinion when it is presented with a logical set of reasons.

Part of the topic is consistency and part is heterosis. Those two things probably do not go together. A person could have a very consistent set of calves, but they could be consistently bad. Max heterosis probably does not give max consistency. It is not black and white.

I think the thought process for many is from the view of a commercial herd with multiple breed cows. And a strongly held belief that breed associations should only exist for the purpose of breed purity instead of data collection, pedigree documentation and giving choices to producers. But there are also many seedstock producers that are producing and using in their herds these "crossbred" bulls with considerable success and acceptance. And the demand is there.

Some here even believe that any black simmental, limousin, or gelbvieh are really angus, so maybe those simangus bulls are purebred anyway.
 
Travlr said:
Please reread my post to see where I claimed anything was "strongly held"... LOL



So pretty much what I said... (Again, LOL)
Click to expand...
"Strongly held" is my evaluation of your view. Never said it was yours. We could start a poll to see if my evaluation is close.:)

Here is also what you said:
"It's been a mistake to create registrations for them. The strength of registered animals is reliability and cross breeds are not reliable enough to merit registration in any way, shape, or form."

When people buy a bull, they have choices to make. Getting input from many people might help in that selection. But also need to recognize that they need to select for their situation.

"cross breeds are not reliable enough to merit registration in any way, shape, or form" seems to me to suggest a strongly held belief.

But I am willing to admit that you are correct for now. Will be easier on me. LOL
 
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simme said:
Thanks for the detailed post showing your thought process. I agree with your thoughts. I was hoping to get a little more reasoning from Travlr on his strongly held beliefs. The use of a crossbred bull is probably not the best plan for most herds. But there are some differences in crossbred bulls. I would see little if any benefit of a Chianina-highland cross bull for instance. But to decide that all crossbred bulls are bad simply because they are crossbred - that might show as much bias as reasoning. I always enjoy reading a different opinion when it is presented with a logical set of reasons.

Part of the topic is consistency and part is heterosis. Those two things probably do not go together. A person could have a very consistent set of calves, but they could be consistently bad. Max heterosis probably does not give max consistency. It is not black and white.

I think the thought process for many is from the view of a commercial herd with multiple breed cows. And a strongly held belief that breed associations should only exist for the purpose of breed purity instead of data collection, pedigree documentation and giving choices to producers. But there are also many seedstock producers that are producing and using in their herds these "crossbred" bulls with considerable success and acceptance. And the demand is there.

Some here even believe that any black simmental, limousin, or gelbvieh are really angus, so maybe those simangus bulls are purebred anyway.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your response and take on this.
I agree heterosis and consistency don't seem to come together logically.
This is how I see both concepts working.
Take for example a herd of Angus cows bred to a Charolais bull. The resulting calves will have sone variation but all will look like similar Charolais cross calves the real variation in phenotype between the parents will likely show up more pronounced later in life.
Same with a crossbred herd of cows and a Charolais bull, the calves will be identified as CharolaisX.
I mention in response another comment about the variation with breeds, and I referenced the Angus bulls Coleman Charlo and Sydgen CC&7, two very different bulls but I believe the latter to be more of an outlier and his calves could have quite a bit of variation as well as far as performance if they skew more towards breed average.
I agree that crossbreeding has made sense financially to several breed associations. I believe that SimAngus helped to open back the door for more of a market for purebred Simmentals in recent years.
I also agree that all crossbred animals are not inferior to purebred. I would rather have a good quality sensible crossbred bull than a poor quality purebred, If money and quality were equal I'd personally choose a purebred unless as you mentioned it was a situation where the crossbred might work better for a specific purpose.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Simmental's also have a breed up program. I think it takes 7/8 percentage registered Simmental blood to be registered as a purebred. So they would be similar to Murray Grey. I suspect both programs may have other conditions that must be met beyond that percentage.

All breeds began with someone deciding they wanted to preserve specific attributes. Registries were formed, rules were set and only certain animals were allowed to participate. Eventually the registries were either closed, with no outside animals allowed (such as Black Angus and Hereford), or they remained open to additional animals that met certain requirements. The RAAA (Red Angus Assn of America) allows you to register red calves out of AAA registered black cows. The AAA (black Angus) does not allow registration of a black calf out of a red cow. AAA does allow registration of a black animal that carries the recessive red gene however.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley said:
SimAngus steers have really made a name for themselves thru the Superior Sales.
Obviously, I'm not into crossbreeding in my herd - but, I have always believed that the Simmental and Angus crosses are excellent offspring.
Click to expand...
They are a great cross. Great for terminal calves and great for commercial replacements.
 
Travlr said:
Yup, we don't agree. Our experience and the way we perceive results are different. If you are satisfied with your results then it's fine for you, and if I was getting the results you are getting I would probably find flaws and develop ways to make the improvements I find valuable. You would do the same if you were getting the results I got. I've never seen a perfect bull for every cow, but I've seen better results using pure bred bulls covering commercial cows.

This is one of those marginally weak opinions. I've seen some good results with cross bred bulls too. There are always outliers. I just don't think registration should be applied to crossbred animals.
Click to expand...
Agreed 100%
 
puzzled in oregon said:
Sir, that heifer is 1/2 Murray Grey, 1/4 Corriente, 1/8 Hereford and 1/8 Angus.
You would be hard pressed to find another like her. :)
Click to expand...
Well as long as you know the percentages she must be registerable with every one of those breeds. And just think of the opportunities with her offspring...
 
"I agree heterosis and consistency don't seem to come together logically."

They do, however. A cross between 2 close bred and assumed purebred individuals improve consistency in the purebred sources if the breeder knows that a type that fits, without problems, is his job. Then the cross of the two distinctly different breeds deliver maximum heterosis to the buyers of the two offspring from the two sources.

The all black marketing deal has ruined that for many breeds. Heterosis for commercial folks is used up, partly, buy the "almost purebred" source breeders. The commercial buyers, in a sense, get cheated out of maximum heterosis in their cattle.

From some ongoing genetic work in sheep - 5 generations of an outcross hides the genetics of the outcross from modern DNA testing. But if you deal with the breeds that have recessive genes then you know that the random outcross of 20 or even 40 years ago will eventually pop back up. It will take some line breeding to reveal it. That means few will ever see it.
 

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