New bull time

[MurraysMutts]

Let's cuss and discuss.

As ya'll know Big Sexy had to go. I like eared cattle, but the buyers not so much. The hereford sired calves over my main herd do really well. I've posted about that some too!

I have 4 colored cows. 1 of which is a project so I don't know if she's gonna stay or not. So most of "my girls" are black hided now. About 10 cows at each place. Yep! I'm small timer. That drought last year forced me to cull very hard. Harder than I wanted to really.

So!
I'm leaning towards a Hereford or Blaze face sim-angus. Or possibly a homo black hereford.

The goal is black baldy calves. I really like em. Every one of em has their own special markings etc. Makes em easy to identify what cow they belong to etc. I usually take pics when calf is born in case I can't get it tagged that minute. I can always compare pics and identify. I like to tag em to match mama.

I need good calves. I'd be happy with a bull that did what Big Sexy did.
I'd prefer BLACK baldies.
Tho some red baldies do ok, but with my small herd, the uniformity would be much better.

So there we are. For the most part that's what I'm thinking. I've given up on the idea of producing eared calves. Don't mean I won't have a project or two. But the eared ones don't bring as "much"

And gentle!! Gotta be gentle!
I could load Big Sexy by myself. Did it all the time. And gentle calves would be awesome too. He passed that trait along for the most part.

 

[WFfarm]

Around us it's a lot easier to find a black blazed Simmental than a black Hereford.

 

[Warren Allison]

Unless your cows are reg Angus or Brangus, you'd need to test them for homozygous black, if you get another Hereford. Personally I'd prefer a bwf Simm over a SimmAng, but with either you'd need to make sure they are homo for black and polled. Same with a Black Hereford. Both will be right there on the BH bull's papers,

10 at each place..is that 20 cows or 20 head total with bull, steers, calves and your Jeresies? Would either place be able to hold all the cows for about 45 days, to get a consistent, uniform calf crop? Are you gonna AI those Jeresys with sexed Brahma semen?

 

[Brute 23]

You will probably give up some uniformity trying to get baldy calves, which doesn't really add value.

A good BA bull is going to bring those calves together as best as possible and add the most value.

 

[Ky hills]

Of the choices you mentioned, and in the interest of uniformity my first pick would Simmental. Based on where you are if it's similar to southeast OK, I'm not sure how many Simmentals are around and you'd have to make sure they were the kind that would slick off good and fast for the summer.
Here Simmentals are very popular, and could find several options probably for homozygous black/polled etc. I prefer a straight Simmental to SimAngus when buying one to cross.
Around here it would be hard to find many good quality "black" Herefords and especially homozygous black.
That's why I'd stick with traditional Herefords if I were buying one.
I'm currently using a 3/4 Angus BWF that is not homozygous black and being that we have mostly Hereford and heterozygous black cows we get several red calves along with black calves sone white faced and some solid.
The last bull we bought is a red white face Simmental, slick haired but again not sure how they'd do in OK heat.

 

[MurraysMutts]

@Warren Allison
The only jersey and she part jersey Is Bessie. No more here.
Seven is Brown.
I got the yeller cow and the brindle cow at the lease place.

I don't want 1 calving season. I want a spring and a fall group. It gives me options when I run across deals on cows. I can decide which group to take em to. Where the bull is, etc. Bull will be at one place for 6 months. And the other for 6 months. Provided he works like Big Sexy, they all be bred within 45 days or so anyway. And if I bring in any projects that's just a bonus for the bull!

The brindle may not hang around after her calf. She was bought right, and may be a one n done. That only leaves me with 3 colored cows. And no way in hell am I getting rid of Bessie or Seven.
The big yeller cow does a good job and I can live with one odd calf over there for this time.

@Brute 23 appreciate the thoughts on uniformity. But who really wants a bunch of all black/all same/plain ol boring solid colored calves?
I know I know. Uniformity.
But can't I have uniformity and baldy calves as well??

 

[BFE]

Simmental

 

[SBMF 2015]

If you could get a bull like this
That would produce calves that look like this

 

[Warren Allison]

@Warren Allison
The only jersey and she part jersey Is Bessie. No more here.

I thought you had another one called Elanore?



@Brute 23 appreciate the thoughts on uniformity. But who really wants a bunch of all black/all same/plain ol boring solid colored calves?

Buyers do.

 

[Ky hills]

I believe with a purebred black Simmental the calves would be just as uniform as from an Angus, and likely have a little more frame and weight than Angus.

 

[Warren Allison]

I believe with a purebred black Simmental the calves would be just as uniform as from an Angus, and likely have a little more frame and weight than Angus.

That is true. But on another thread you said your preference was Black Angus. Best calving ease and best calf vigor. Maybe that is what gave rise to the development of the SimmAngus... best of both worlds?

 

[Travlr]

Let's cuss and discuss.

As ya'll know Big Sexy had to go. I like eared cattle, but the buyers not so much. The hereford sired calves over my main herd do really well. I've posted about that some too!

I have 4 colored cows. 1 of which is a project so I don't know if she's gonna stay or not. So most of "my girls" are black hided now. About 10 cows at each place. Yep! I'm small timer. That drought last year forced me to cull very hard. Harder than I wanted to really.

So!
I'm leaning towards a Hereford or Blaze face sim-angus. Or possibly a homo black hereford.

The goal is black baldy calves. I really like em. Every one of em has their own special markings etc. Makes em easy to identify what cow they belong to etc. I usually take pics when calf is born in case I can't get it tagged that minute. I can always compare pics and identify. I like to tag em to match mama.

I need good calves. I'd be happy with a bull that did what Big Sexy did.
I'd prefer BLACK baldies.
Tho some red baldies do ok, but with my small herd, the uniformity would be much better.

So there we are. For the most part that's what I'm thinking. I've given up on the idea of producing eared calves. Don't mean I won't have a project or two. But the eared ones don't bring as "much"

And gentle!! Gotta be gentle!
I could load Big Sexy by myself. Did it all the time. And gentle calves would be awesome too. He passed that trait along for the most part.

Well Murray, if black, white faced calves with no noticeable ear are what you want, then that kind of limits your choices. But that's okay. We all have images in our head of what we prefer. So you need something homo black... Angus, Sim, Lim, BH, probably not Brangus. And you need something that will put a brockle face on as many calves as possible. That's the limiting factor, really. That leaves a Sim with a white face or a black Hereford.

Personally I'd go for a homo black Lim to put the meat on and get good consistency, but there are other bulls with meat if you look.

I've never done anything with either Sim or black Hereford, but I have with straight Hereford. I think they get a bad rap mainly because the CAB thing had to make enemies of all the other breeds, and Hereford was the most popular at the time. Herefords are much better cattle than many people give them credit for in present times.

I think you'll do well with either BH or a white faced Sim. Depth, muscle, and moderate calf weights... and growth once they are on the ground. You know the drill...

 

[Ky hills]

That is true. But on another thread you said your preference was Black Angus. Best calving ease and best calf vigor. Maybe that is what gave rise to the development of the SimmAngus... best of both worlds?

I did say that but, when I said that about Angus I was referring to Angus as heifer bulls. I think you are leaving money on the table when using them on cows,
A lot of people like SimAngus, but to me that is where you get into uniformity issues when using a crossed bulls like a SimAngus besides you don't get the full benefit of heterosis, that you would from from say a Simmental bull over Angus cows.

 

[Warren Allison]

I did say that but, when I said that about Angus I was referring to Angus as heifer bulls. I think you are leaving money on the table when using them on cows,
A lot of people like SimAngus, but to me that is where you get into uniformity issues when using a crossed bulls like a SimAngus besides you don't get the full benefit of heterosis, that you would from from say a Simmental bull over Angus cows.

Yep! Anyone is backing up anytime they use a 1/2 one thing 1/2 another bull. You can breed a reg Simm to a reg Angus and register the offspring as a SimmAngus. But it won'tbe genetically It will be a Sim x Ang crossbreed, It is foolish to use one of these as a sire. 1/2 the calves will be 50% Ang and the other 1/2 will be 50% Simm.. Might as well use 2 bulls, one Sim and one Angus. SimmAngus rules are it must be at least 1/8 reg Simm and 1/8 reg Angus, but no more than 7/8ths reg Simm or Angus. A true 5/8 - 3/8 or 9/16-7/16 composite will sire consistent 50% Sim Angus calves.

 

[southernultrablack]

Gelbvieh comes in homo black and white faced too!

 

[Ky hills]

Yep! Anyone is backing up anytime they use a 1/2 one thing 1/2 another bull. You can breed a reg Simm to a reg Angus and register the offspring as a SimmAngus. But it won'tbe genetically It will be a Sim x Ang crossbreed, It is foolish to use one of these as a sire. 1/2 the calves will be 50% Ang and the other 1/2 will be 50% Simm.. Might as well use 2 bulls, one Sim and one Angus. SimmAngus rules are it must be at least 1/8 reg Simm and 1/8 reg Angus, but no more than 7/8ths reg Simm or Angus. A true 5/8 - 3/8 or 9/16-7/16 composite will sire consistent 50% Sim Angus calves.

That why I would never go out and buy a cross bull. I'm using one but he's home raised and is serving his purpose. If I replace him with a bought bull it will be a purebred.

 

[simme]

"Yep! Anyone is backing up anytime they use a 1/2 one thing 1/2 another bull. You can breed a reg Simm to a reg Angus and register the offspring as a SimmAngus. But it won'tbe genetically It will be a Sim x Ang crossbreed, It is foolish to use one of these as a sire. 1/2 the calves will be 50% Ang and the other 1/2 will be 50% Simm.. Might as well use 2 bulls, one Sim and one Angus."

I think many would not agree with that. Here are some very popular F-1 simmental/angus bulls. PB angus bred to PB simmental - crossbred bulls! All used as AI sires. These bulls have sired thousands of calves. Used by small breeders as well as in large herds by respected and profitable ranchers. All of these bulls are in the list of the current year 50 most used sires in the simmental registry. Maybe it is foolish of those breeders to use these bulls - or maybe they know a thing or two about good cattle.

 

[Travlr]

1/2 the calves will be 50% Ang and the other 1/2 will be 50% Simm..

It's a little more complicated than that. All calves have a chance of getting any gene from the bull that he carries and will be getting a mix of chromosomes from both breeds, with the sex determinant genes of the bull's offspring from the Y chromosome guaranteed to be from the breed that fathered the bull and the X from the breed that mothered the bull. So a bull fathered by Sim and out of Angus will have the Y chromosome passed down to the calves and the X from the Angus will go to heifers, meaning bull calves will be Sim influenced to the extent the Y is dominant and Heifers will be Angus influenced to the extent the X is dominant. And there are other factors too.

But that doesn't mean you won't get relatively consistent calves. If the parents are well matched by type the bull can throw consistent calves. That's one of the problems with Beefmaster. They never established a consistent type.

 

[Warren Allison]

"Yep! Anyone is backing up anytime they use a 1/2 one thing 1/2 another bull. You can breed a reg Simm to a reg Angus and register the offspring as a SimmAngus. But it won'tbe genetically It will be a Sim x Ang crossbreed, It is foolish to use one of these as a sire. 1/2 the calves will be 50% Ang and the other 1/2 will be 50% Simm.. Might as well use 2 bulls, one Sim and one Angus."

I think many would not agree with that. Here are some very popular F-1 simmental/angus bulls. PB angus bred to PB simmental - crossbred bulls! All used as AI sires. These bulls have sired thousands of calves. Used by small breeders as well as in large herds by respected and profitable ranchers. All of these bulls are in the list of the current year 50 most used sires in the simmental registry. Maybe it is foolish of those breeders to use these bulls - or maybe they know a thing or two about good cattle.

View attachment 35035
View attachment 35036
View attachment 35037
View attachment 35038

Simm sire and ang dam, or vice versa, will still yield a bull that 50% of his calves will be 1/2 Simm calves and the other 50% of his calves will be 1/2 Angus. No other way they can be. All of his chromosone pairs will be 1 Simm set and 1 Ang set, The sperm cells will have either a simm strand or an Ang strand. This is not a matter of opinion to agree or disagree open. It is just scientific fact. At that f1 stage there is no SimmAng DNA. A breed does not become a stabilized breed with its own DNA until the f3 cross. You breed a 1/2 Simm 1/2 Angus to say a Charolais. Half the calves could be 50% Simm and 50% Charolais. The other half could be 50% angus and 50% Charolais. There is no way for it to be other wise, That half breed bull can contribute only one of two possible chromosones..either Simm chromosones or an Angus chromosones. Not saying those aren't fine bulls, or that a lot of people use their semen. I am saying that the sperm in that semen will contain either Simm or Angus DNA. The only possible characteristic that is 100% guaranteed to be consistent, is color, IF the Simm parent was homozygous for black. Granted with a gazillion sperm in each ejaculation...a half gazillion Angus sperm and half gazillion Simm sperm in each straw, and you breed 20 cows, the chances are good all 20 will get a Simm sperm , or all 20 get an Angus sperm. Or 19 and 1, 18 and 2, all the way to 1 and 19. That was what whoever started this meant when he said you'd get better consistency using a pb black Simm than a 50-50 Simmangus.

 

[Travlr]

The karyotype of cattle is composed of 58 acrocentric autosomes and two subtelomeric sex chromosomes.

All calves from a bull produced by two breeds will have a fifty fifty chance of getting one or the other side of each chromosome. So there are a lot of combinations possible.