dun":3l3qhjmv said:
Just as "heavier weights haven't hurt them in the least" low BW doesn;t either. An eaqsy calving bull doesn;t automatically make him the sire of hard calving heifers/cows.
You're right Dun, and I didn't mean to imply that low BW animals mean small pelvics. What I'm afraid of is that we're going to see Vets recommending smaller pelvic sizes because of the lower BW animals. Perhaps it won't happen with our generation, but how long will it be until some smart guy with a suit and tie asks "why the large pelvics for such small calves?" then rewrites a textbook?
Walt,
As Dun mentioned, there are recommended pelvic sizes and tools for measuring it. I've never personally done it, and wouldn't have slightest idea what my cows would measure out at. I had the good fortune of having a grandmother and uncle who were, in my opinion, two of the best cattlemen walking, teach me as much as I could learn about phenotype and cattle selection. And I've worked some doggoned good cattlemen as a younger lad.
I select my bulls for true calving ease, and completely disagree that birthweight has as much to do with it as most people feel, but rather pay more attention to head shape and front shoulders versus birthweight. I also cull heavily around here, and any cow/heifer that shows me signs that she isn't able to hack my heavier birthweights, leaves on a rail. The heifer that started this thread for example would be gone in a heartbeat. Not so much because a 125 lb calf had to be pulled from her, but rather because it took her so long to get back up. I've had to pull heavy calves from heifers before, but they've not went down, and were ready to mother as soon as the calf was out.
NR,
Whats a pile of crap is that you "have to" pull the odd calf from high birthweight cattle. My weights this year were too high, I know. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I prefer to see 90 lb average on heifers and 100 lb average on cows. But I was using the weights to illustrate that high birthweights do not necessarily mean calving problems. My calving book has 63 calves in it from that bull, all 1Us. Matter of fact, in 12 years, I've had 2 c-sections, none of which were due to high birthweights but rather no waterbag. And I've pulled as many small, blunt nosed, coarse shouldered calves as I've pulled large calves. Perhaps you've been at it alot of years, but I'd say my 30 years isn't anything to sneeze at either and if you're going to try and tell me that 50 lb calves weigh the same at weaning time as 100 lb calves do, I'm going to call BS, because I know its not true. Ditto the backgrounded stuff. Perhaps those 50 lbers can catch up through the finishing phase, but I doubt it, since they won't catch up through the backgrounding phase and its well documented that low birthweight calves are later maturing.
And as far as how I know whats natural and whats not, my family has been raising Shorthorn cattle since the mid 1800s. These little bitty 50 and 60 lb calves are NOT normal for the breed. Grandma and Grandpa ran 90 lb average calves for over 50 years. In that 50 years, they had the vet out a total of 3 times.
Cowgirl,
You miss my point. I don't have 100 lb dead ones. My cows are perfectly capable of delivering live 100 lb calves, all on their own with no assistance from me. Its all in the selection of easy calving bulls and as Dun said, proper selection of the breeding stock. I don't own a calf puller. I own OB chains, but I think right now they're being used to hold a corral panel in place. Before that, they were rusting on the barn wall.
Rod
