Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Just bites his tongue lol.
126 lb. new born
- Thread starter Joy in Texas
- Start date
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DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
Texas Gal":1e3icnmg said:
Texas Gal, you're missing what both Sainty and I are saying: Having a 100 lb calf doesn't mean you're going to have a dead calf. If you've selected your breeding stock correctly, its pure fallacy spread by the jackrabbit breeders that 100 lb BW calves mean dead calves.
But while we're on the topic of economics, lets work a few numbers:
Lets say you have 50 calves born at 70 lbs, and 50 calves born at 100 lbs. Despite what the jackrabbit breeders say, those 100 lb calves will outweigh the 70 lbers by a MINIMUM of 30 lbs. My experience is the weight differential will be closer to 50 lbs, but for the purposes of this, we'll use the 30 lb birthweight differential. If you experience no extra losses, you'll have 1500 lbs more calf to sell at weaning time. At a 600 lb weaning rate, thats 2.5 extra calves. So you can afford to lose an extra 5% of your calves before breakeven with 70 lb calves.
Edit: Throughout this thread I've been talking about pure birthweights, but I've also been making an assumption of a 12 - 1300 lb cow. I should be talking about birthweight as a percentage of cow weight to be completely accurate, and I feel that any cow should EASILY and COMPLETELY UNASSISTED, calve out 8 - 9% of her body weight.
Rod
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
The 'Problem' with theoretical averages and telling yourself that it's "AFFORDABLE' to lose five percent extra calves is that if you run a herd that way for very long is that your BW averages will creep up over time. If your averaging 100- pounds your going to have some calves a fair amount over that. From your bible reference I'm sure a big BW heifer calf would be considered God's gift to the cattle business and would be retained. Nobody said that 100 lb calves were dead calves what I'm trying to get through to you is if you aren't disciplined about BW it will creep upward over generations until it becomes a problem. I've seen it in a alot of breeds in several herds. If your willing to chop the heads off the heifers that fall over the upper limit of your weight range you'll probably do fine-if not the wreck is coming sooner or later. Retain ownership on a few calf crops Rod then tell me what the industry needs-broad reaching assumptions from small herds of cattle aren't really that valid.
*Cowgirl*
Well-known member
:clap:Northern Rancher":2rixtdai said:
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
You made a bad assumption, NR. Actually you appear to have made several bad assumptions throughout this entire thread.
I cull heavily around here and I've retained ownership of heifers to build my herd since I bought my first cows decades ago. I do not retain ownership of the extremes, hence my term 'targeted birthweights'. I thought it would be understood, at least by the genuine cattlemen in the crowd, that if you want 100 lb calves, you certainly don't use breeding stock that dropped at 120 lbs, either on the cow OR the bull side. I even mentioned it earlier in the thread that it was YOU who was pushing up my calf weights, not me. I guess that was my own bad assumption.
"From your bible reference I'm sure a big BW heifer calf would be considered God's gift to the cattle business and would be retained."
Come to think of it, why would you even remotely make an assumption like this? Do you think you are the only person in the world who understands genetics, birthweights and selection of breeding stock?
"what I'm trying to get through to you is if you aren't disciplined about BW it will creep upward over generations until it becomes a problem."
Then why not say that right from the get-go? I could have cleared up your misunderstanding about my culling practices and this thread could have ended pages ago without your sarcasm and sunshine cracks.
"Nobody said that 100 lb calves were dead calves what I'm trying to get through to you is if you aren't disciplined about BW it will creep upward over generations until it becomes a problem."
Actually, there have been two references to it (what was that reference you made to reading earlier?). "I'd rather have a small, live calf than a large, dead calf". What I'm trying to get into people's heads is that its pure fallacy that birthweights cannot be safely pushed upwards with proper selection of breeding stock.
Rod
I cull heavily around here and I've retained ownership of heifers to build my herd since I bought my first cows decades ago. I do not retain ownership of the extremes, hence my term 'targeted birthweights'. I thought it would be understood, at least by the genuine cattlemen in the crowd, that if you want 100 lb calves, you certainly don't use breeding stock that dropped at 120 lbs, either on the cow OR the bull side. I even mentioned it earlier in the thread that it was YOU who was pushing up my calf weights, not me. I guess that was my own bad assumption.
"From your bible reference I'm sure a big BW heifer calf would be considered God's gift to the cattle business and would be retained."
Come to think of it, why would you even remotely make an assumption like this? Do you think you are the only person in the world who understands genetics, birthweights and selection of breeding stock?
"what I'm trying to get through to you is if you aren't disciplined about BW it will creep upward over generations until it becomes a problem."
Then why not say that right from the get-go? I could have cleared up your misunderstanding about my culling practices and this thread could have ended pages ago without your sarcasm and sunshine cracks.
"Nobody said that 100 lb calves were dead calves what I'm trying to get through to you is if you aren't disciplined about BW it will creep upward over generations until it becomes a problem."
Actually, there have been two references to it (what was that reference you made to reading earlier?). "I'd rather have a small, live calf than a large, dead calf". What I'm trying to get into people's heads is that its pure fallacy that birthweights cannot be safely pushed upwards with proper selection of breeding stock.
Rod
Dusty Britches
Well-known member
Hey Joy! See what you started here! :lol: :lol: When are we going to see the pictures?
Glad to hear your calf and your heifer are fine! Hopefully, you won't see another one that big. As you know, EPD's are estimates of averages, sometimes they are big, sometimes they are little. I'm glad you were prepared to deal with the high side. Congrats!
Glad to hear your calf and your heifer are fine! Hopefully, you won't see another one that big. As you know, EPD's are estimates of averages, sometimes they are big, sometimes they are little. I'm glad you were prepared to deal with the high side. Congrats!
Billdevaul
Well-known member
yeah send pics need pics want pics .... :lol: 
:cboy:
:cboy:Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Read your post about putting it in a bible Rod-if your calves average 100 pounds your having some that weigh considerably more than that-do you retain them. I was saying the same thing all along you just didn't get off your jackrabbit rant long enough to read it. As for being a genuine cattleman-I make my living in the cattle business-do you? As for sarcasm your smart mouth comment about jackrabbit calves was replied to in kind -don't pout about it now. So Rod answer this how far do you plan on pushing BW's up-I'm curious to hear.
George Monk
Well-known member
There seems to be a lot of truth on this thread. IF....you are willing to listen. I profess to know less about the cattle industry than most. My father raised cattle and I am into my 12th calving season. We switched to a horned hereford bull several years ago. MOST of the calves born bottomed out our 100 lb spring scale. We have NEVER pulled any of the calves. They are "made right" calves. All legs and small heads. Having 100+ lb calves is not a problem.
simply put Rod is speaking truths, if you are willing to listen.
simply put Rod is speaking truths, if you are willing to listen.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Well i'm done with this post-been down that garden path before-but if it works more power to you.
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
DiamondSCattleCo":25f1ech9 said:
Theres the bible quote, NR. Now how would you assume that I'm going to keep increasing birthweights from something like that? Just because I believe that an average group of Brit heifers in our neck of the woods should be able to calve out 90 lb calves unassisted? Especially since I earlier mentioned that I specifically target my heifers to drop 90 lb BW calves and my cows I want to see dropping around 100 lbs of calf?
As for the rest of your questions, I've answered them, sometimes twice elsewhere in this thread. I'm not going to waste anymore time repeating the answers. For those who are actually reading the posts, they've seen the responses and they can make their own decisions. I'm not here to sell anything to anyone.
And while I hate playing the schoolyard game with you, I made no mention of jackrabbits until well into the thread. You pulled the arrogant sunshine garbage in your very first post.
I'm done with you NR.
Rod
*Cowgirl*
Well-known member
I'm getting sick of this. It's starting to get nasty. Neither of you are going to give. If 110lb calves work in your problem - fine. If 50lb calves work in your program - fine. Personally I like the 70-80 pounders - fine.
Billdevaul
Well-known member
it's all Joys fault...lol if she had just posted them pics.... :lol:
Joy in Texas
Well-known member
Sorry I got one picture posted.These animals are keeping me busy.
Besides I didn't want to get in a run of what size calf is best. I myself will take anything under 70 lbs. But that works for me and my cows.
After talking to our vet and trying to figure out why this calf got so big, could be any number of reasons. He told us no to blame the bull or her either . The has already had over 50 calves under 70lbs. It could have been cause by the simi in the heifer. Who knows !
Besides I didn't want to get in a run of what size calf is best. I myself will take anything under 70 lbs. But that works for me and my cows.
After talking to our vet and trying to figure out why this calf got so big, could be any number of reasons. He told us no to blame the bull or her either . The has already had over 50 calves under 70lbs. It could have been cause by the simi in the heifer. Who knows !
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
thats right.. who knows.. low birth weight beefmaster bull on beefmaster cows could = a average weight of 70 pd. then breed him it to a crossbred cow. it can be a toss up of the out come. if i were to guess it would be the heifer's influence
coolpop
Well-known member
I'll take a 70- 80 lb calf. That's generally what we have around here.
memanpa
Well-known member
me thinks this thread was hjacked!!!
and beating a dead horse is not going to make it run!!!!
and beating a dead horse is not going to make it run!!!!
HerefordSire
Well-known member
Northern Rancher":1fq5duyf said:
NR....
The problem with cowboys like you....
(1) Close minded.
(2) Think you are better than others.
It was a pleasure to read Diamond.. spanking you!
NR: I am going to have to side with yo on this one. I have lived through the big birthweight generation of the late 80's and early 90's. I will quit raising cattle before I will go back to raising those again. The first generation of the high birth weight is not the problem but when that higher birthweight creeps into the cowherd things get a lot harder. I agree that a 90- 100 lb calf will last longer in colder weather in that they will have more body mass to defeat exposure but the 80 - 90 pound calf is more likely to stand up faster so that is a pretty even trade for me.
It is interesting that we have people from Texas to Northern Sask. commmenting on birthweights. The differences between those two environments on the birthweights of the same genetics is huge to say the least. Here in South Dakota our birthweights drop significantly as the weather warms up (5-10+ lbs).
It is interesting that we have people from Texas to Northern Sask. commmenting on birthweights. The differences between those two environments on the birthweights of the same genetics is huge to say the least. Here in South Dakota our birthweights drop significantly as the weather warms up (5-10+ lbs).
