“Black” Herefords

[Travlr]

I just saw these two advertised on FB
Says they are October 22, homozygous black and polled.
From what I understand these are from a Hereford breeder that has been working on the black cattle for while, and I believe they have a good herd of cattle.
As individuals these bulls look pretty good to me, and certainly better than most of the " black " Herefords that I see advertised around here fairly locally. Most that I see are not homozygous black, and thus I see no point in a heterozygous black bull in that capacity.
These look good, but. In my mind pinkeye would still be a concern on at least the first bull, and just a personal preference thing I can't get used to the Hereford look on a black hided animal.
I actually much prefer the look of an Angus/Hereford F1 cross to the look of "black" Herefords.
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It would be much more interesting if there was a line of black Herefords bred up from some Homozygous black Limousin.

 

[CCCowman]

Im seeing almost 0 interest in them here. 1 guy has them is all im aware of. His are very small calves at selling time with a lot of feather white on them. Don't sell well.

Don't know where in SW Virginia you're at but there's plenty of interest in Black Herefords around here. 4 years ago there was 3 breeders in East Tennessee and 1 in Southwest Virginia. Today (12-20-23) there's 9 in East Tennessee and 7 in Southwest Virginia. I'd say the interest is there around here. Nationally we are the fastest growing breed in the country. Not an opinion.....Numbers support this. As a breed, we know we will never be as big as Herefords or Angus. We've caught a couple breeds and are gaining fast on a few others.

I cull hard. Reality is some are winners and some aren't but all the registered culls I take to the barn sale well. I use a BH bull on my commercial girls and every time I go to the sale barn a couple of buyers ask me if I brought some of those good baldies and what their numbers are. Honestly.... a black Hereford bull will not work real good on a purebred registered herd of Angus but put one on a herd of commercial blacks. You may be embarrassed to say you have run a Black Hereford bull but your billfold will be full!!!!!

Personally I have sold out of bull the past 3 years. This year I had 6. Culled 2, 1 that just didn't grow and 1 that was freakin' awesome but was bat crap crazy. Sold both at Abingdon and got $2.36 @ 633 lb for the runt and $2.11 @ 711 for the crazy one (I dont keep or sell crazy). Sold the other 4 before they were a full year old for $2800 - $3500.

The Tennessee Black Hereford Association had our sell in April in Blountville. Our bulls averaged $3700. Bred heifers averaged $2700 and open heifers averaged $2450. We had 56 lots and all but 1 lot sold. The one lot actually sold but the buyer backed out after the sell. We are having another sale April 6th, 2024 at the Ron Ramsey Regional Ag Center in Blountville. I invite you to come out and see what we offer. I am on the Tennessee BH Association board of Directors and was just recently elected to the American Black Hereford Association national board of directors. Come out and look me up. I'll buy lunch and we'll Talk catte! - Todd Hampton

 

[Warren Allison]

At this point, I don't know what the difference is between the generic modern "Hereford" and a black Hereford. MSUD had its origins with the polled shorthorn and it is an open secret that Trust was an eighth red angus.
The biggest issue, I see with the Black Hereford is that it takes a long time and a lot of culling to achieve a homozygous black 7/8 Hereford. After each backcross to Hereford, half the calves will be red and of no use to the breeding program. And then to make a homo black bull, only a quarter of those matings will be homozygous black. By my math, the black Hereford would only have 1/16 of the selection room compared to a purebred.

Yes it does take a lot to get a homo for black BH that is 13/16ths red Hereford. You take a homo BH ( 5/8ths Herf 3/8ths Angus) and breed it to a red hereford, and you get a hetero Black Hereford that is 13/16ths Hereford. Breed that one back to a red Hereford, and you have a 50% chance of a hetero black Hereford, a 50% chance for red one. The black calves will be hetero for black, and will be 29/32nds Hereford. A lot more hereford than Simms are Simmental, etc. Breed two of these and you have a 50% of getting a homo black Herf, and 50% chance of getting a hetero black. It takes time and dedication, and you will have a lot of commercial red Herefords to try to sell.

 

[Warren Allison]

We do allow red female offspring to be registered. They are designated as a HX.

I did not know that. Has it been that way from the start? Makes sense on the Hx. Kinda like in Paints and Appaloosa..if a foal is born solid color, they can be registered "breeding stock only". I have been wondering where you were and was waiting on you to join in the debate Have you run up on anyone breeding them to red Angus for black baldies yet?

 

[CCCowman]

At this point, I don't know what the difference is between the generic modern "Hereford" and a black Hereford. MSUD had its origins with the polled shorthorn and it is an open secret that Trust was an eighth red angus.
The biggest issue, I see with the Black Hereford is that it takes a long time and a lot of culling to achieve a homozygous black 7/8 Hereford. After each backcross to Hereford, half the calves will be red and of no use to the breeding program. And then to make a homo black bull, only a quarter of those matings will be homozygous black. By my math, the black Hereford would only have 1/16 of the selection room compared to a purebred.

It does take time and a lot of luck. Math tells you that breeding a hetro BH bull to a hetro BH cow say 50% will be red. Now here's where luck comes in..... I AI'd 11 hetro BH cows to a hetro BH bull. Got 11 black calves (9 heifers, 2 bulls). 3 came out hetro black, 8 came back homo black. Next year may be complete opposite.

You do take the chance on getting red calves. But as a black Hereford breeder, that's the chance I have to take. I have to keep putting those red Hereford genetics into my herd to get the quality animals I want and that the BH breed needs. We're getting there. Go take a look at the black Hereford bull that Burns sold a few weeks ago for $14,000. Any cattleman would proud of that boy regardless of what breed you own.

 

[CCCowman]

I did not know that. Has it been that way from the start? Makes sense on the Hx. Kinda like in Paints and Appaloosa..if a foal is born solid color, they can be registered "breeding stock only". I have been wondering where you were and was waiting on you to join in the debate Have you run up on anyone breeding them to red Angus for black baldies yet?

yes, HX's have been in our registry from the start. I don't know about the red angus question. Personally, I have not. I don't know a red angus breeder to honest. I'll ask around and see.

Just checked in today and saw the debate. Thought: Oh well, might as well weigh in on this!!!

 

[Travlr]

yes, HX's have been in our registry from the start. I don't know about the red angus question. Personally, I have not. I don't know a red angus breeder to honest. I'll ask around and see.

Just checked in today and saw the debate. Thought: Oh well, might as well weigh in on this!!!

There's been a lot of talk about BH lately, probably started by @MurraysMutts because he was interested in BH. You might want to stick around or at least visit more often.

 

[Cowman42]

There is no such thing as a Black Hereford.

Just like there are no black Simmental, Maine Anjou or Limousin.

 

[kenny thomas]

Don't know where in SW Virginia you're at but there's plenty of interest in Black Herefords around here. 4 years ago there was 3 breeders in East Tennessee and 1 in Southwest Virginia. Today (12-20-23) there's 9 in East Tennessee and 7 in Southwest Virginia. I'd say the interest is there around here. Nationally we are the fastest growing breed in the country. Not an opinion.....Numbers support this. As a breed, we know we will never be as big as Herefords or Angus. We've caught a couple breeds and are gaining fast on a few others.

I cull hard. Reality is some are winners and some aren't but all the registered culls I take to the barn sale well. I use a BH bull on my commercial girls and every time I go to the sale barn a couple of buyers ask me if I brought some of those good baldies and what their numbers are. Honestly.... a black Hereford bull will not work real good on a purebred registered herd of Angus but put one on a herd of commercial blacks. You may be embarrassed to say you have run a Black Hereford bull but your billfold will be full!!!!!

Personally I have sold out of bull the past 3 years. This year I had 6. Culled 2, 1 that just didn't grow and 1 that was freakin' awesome but was bat crap crazy. Sold both at Abingdon and got $2.36 @ 633 lb for the runt and $2.11 @ 711 for the crazy one (I dont keep or sell crazy). Sold the other 4 before they were a full year old for $2800 - $3500.

The Tennessee Black Hereford Association had our sell in April in Blountville. Our bulls averaged $3700. Bred heifers averaged $2700 and open heifers averaged $2450. We had 56 lots and all but 1 lot sold. The one lot actually sold but the buyer backed out after the sell. We are having another sale April 6th, 2024 at the Ron Ramsey Regional Ag Center in Blountville. I invite you to come out and see what we offer. I am on the Tennessee BH Association board of Directors and was just recently elected to the American Black Hereford Association national board of directors. Come out and look me up. I'll buy lunch and we'll Talk catte! - Todd Hampton

I follow your sale and you have done a good job. The Black Herefords i referenced in a previous post came from a sale in TN a few years ago. Not sure what the issue is but im not buying. Keep up the good work.

 

[MurraysMutts]

There's been a lot of talk about BH lately, probably started by @MurraysMutts because he was interested in BH. You might want to stick around or at least visit more often.

They sold 2 REALLY nice bulls at that last special sale. 2500 to 2800 if I remember right. Guy took em both. I sold my pairs so I don't need a bull again til around June.

They were not homo black.
If they were I probly would've bought one of em anyway!

 

[CowboyRam]

It might have been me that brought up the Black Hereford talk before. I bought one last March, and am planning on getting two more BH bulls.

 

[elkwc]

This may be stirring the pot, hopefully not too bad. I'm just giving my take on the concept, and not meaning to disrespect anybody involved with them.
Personally have never had any of them first hand but have had quite a few Herefords and BWF.
I know folks that have leased a black Hereford bull and liked him.
In a recent discussion on here about them. Someone brought up that it was marketing of black hide that brought them to being.
I agree with that assessment. Nothing new about a BWF, even if it is different in the genetic sense that they are high percentage Herefords.
The concept is interesting, but from what I see, most of the ones I see around here are mostly heterozygous black being out of real Hereford cows.
If somebody used a heterozygous black bull on red cows only a percentage of calves will be black the rest will still be red, and on hetero black cow there's still going to be some red calves.
My heterozygous black 3/4 Angus bull proves that. He was home raised or I would not be using him, I would not have purchased a bull like that.
Another thing is that a lot of the black Herefords I see are marked like the reds with white legs and white strip down the neck.
When buyers see a black calf with white feet and legs and white other than on the face they immediately think Holstein influence and the calf gets docked.
Again my 3/4 Angus bull though solid black legged and neck, the Hereford part of him goes back to bull carrying a lot of white and it comes through in at least one or two calves every year and they get the extra dock.
A few years ago, when we were going heavy towards Hereford I considered a black Hereford bull, but looking back I believe putting an Angus or black Simmental bull on a commercial Hereford herd is the better option.
I never could convince myself that the black Herefords were advantageous in any way to what I was doing.
I will say that from the pictures I've seen the quality is improving, but I don't see any thing they can do that good red Hereford couldn't.
It's like the concept of black Charolais the AICA doesn't recognize them. It defeats the whole purpose of using a Charolais bull.
The other breeds like Simmental, Limousin, Gelbviehs are different in that they gained the black hide color during their respective breed ups.
The concept of black Hereford is kind of like trying to reinvent the wheel in my opinion.
Again I know some people are in to the black Hereford thing and I hope the well,
I just can't see a place for them as anything but a commercial animal if I had them.

I agree with your view of BH's. There is only one breeder in this area and his bulls when sold in a consignment sale sell at the bottom. Quality is lower than the Herefords or Angus. The few commercial calves you see sell get docked. We do retain a black baldie to use back on our A Gus cows at times. I know what their dam is and the quality behind them.
IMO all black breeds are a different breed and will never be what the original breed was. I have seen many good black Simmi's, Limmi's ect. The issue is all have reduced frame and muscling to where there is little to nothing too gain by using them. If Jeanne or Simmi was close enough for me to buy one of their bulls I would likely try a Simmi. But haven't found any here that fit my criteria or breeders I have trust in.
Back to the BH's they aren't for me. I researched them and at this point see no advantage to using one. The very few I saw on a feed test tested in the bottom. Have never seen any effiency data on any.

 

[Little Joe]

As I read through this thread I feel the need to stir the pot as @BFE done with the LH/corriente thread and express my feelings on the subject at hand. I know nada about black herefords, I've seen a few around but that's about it so I'm not attacking them or any other breed but how ridiculous is it to go to these lengths just to produce an animal with black hides. This just proves the whole certified angus beef deal is a scam, I mean we're talking animals with such a low percentage angus that I'm not sure there would be any angus traits left other than a black hide yet they can be considered for certified angus beef just because they are black. This whole black hide deal should be illegal, it's conception. I now know people who finish on farm beef that only want black because they somehow think it's a superior product. I've finished several types of cattle and there's traits about all of them I've liked and when the hide was pulled off there was very little difference in the carcass other than sizes. Why have all cattemen other than angus producers not pushed back on this. I have no issue with angus cattle but they are in no way superior to other breeds, and a black hide on whatever cross definitely does not mean superior, most breeds have something to offer and most breeds have the ability to marble well. I understand why the buyers pay a premium for them and why producers want black hides but you would think at some point the packers would've said "you know what, this whole deal is a racket, why are we paying more for black hides than any other?"

 

[mwj]

The black hide is not what made the CAB program work. It is the other requirements that make it a uniform product. It would not be a program if it only had color as the requirement.

 

[Little Joe]

The black hide is not what made the CAB program work. It is the other requirements that make it a uniform product. It would not be a program if it only had color as the requirement.

I realize that but being black gives them no greater chance of meeting the other requirements than being red or yellow or many other variation of colors. I'd say there's as much variation between black cattle on those other requirements as their are between cattle of other kinds.

 

[SDM]

My main deer rifle is a sporterized M96 Swedish Mauser, 6.5x55. a 123 year old combination. A brand new 6.5 Creedmoor won't do anything my old relics won't do. To me the only difference is one is old and boring the other new and exciting. Sales can be gained among those who have to have the latest and greatest. False rumors of high performance and supposed benefits take a while to be dispelled.

I don't know that I've ever seen an official BH, but here, calves marked like that sell sell just as well as the red Herefords. We've had ways for a long time to produce black baldy calves. I guess I just wonder what the point of the effort is when you end up with something that already exists?

 

[Brute 23]

My main deer rifle is a sporterized M96 Swedish Mauser, 6.5x55. a 123 year old combination. A brand new 6.5 Creedmoor won't do anything my old relics won't do. To me the only difference is one is old and boring the other new and exciting. Sales can be gained among those who have to have the latest and greatest. False rumors of high performance and supposed benefits take a while to be dispelled.

I don't know that I've ever seen an official BH, but here, calves marked like that sell sell just as well as the red Herefords. We've had ways for a long time to produce black baldy calves. I guess I just wonder what the point of the effort is when you end up with something that already exists?

That's a great comparison.

 

[Travlr]

The black hide is not what made the CAB program work. It is the other requirements that make it a uniform product. It would not be a program if it only had color as the requirement.

It doesn't matter about "the other requirements" when the animals are valued by their color and bid on by their color and paid for based on their color... before "the other requirements" are even a factor.

 

[Travlr]

I don't know that I've ever seen an official BH, but here, calves marked like that sell sell just as well as the red Herefords. We've had ways for a long time to produce black baldy calves. I guess I just wonder what the point of the effort is when you end up with something that already exists?

I've never seen anyone mention Holstein/Hereford crosses. And honestly, I've never been around anyone breeding dairy for anything except dairy. I was told by someone a long time ago that a Hereford on Holsteins produces a black baldy, but I really don't know. Does it?

 

[Warren Allison]

I realize that but being black gives them no greater chance of meeting the other requirements than being red or yellow or many other variation of colors. I'd say there's as much variation between black cattle on those other requirements as their are between cattle of other kinds.

You are right. Not every calf that the down-lines in the buying chain pay a premium for gets graded CAB by the USDA inspectors. Those buying in the early stages, like weaned calves, take a bigger risk when they pay a premium for a so-so black calf, By the time they leave the feed lots for the processor, they can pretty well tell if one will make CAB or not.