Whats wrong with Simmental cattle?

[SBMF 2015]

I was about 10 years old when the 1st Simmental and Charolais started showing up around here. It was the beginning of a dark period down here, almost a plague or epidemic, that costs us close to half the Angus and Hereford cows down here. The first to arrive in a new place of any breed is usually the bulls. People had not experienced this problem with Brahma, that showed up about the same time, and never considered not breeding their 800 lb cows to these new bulls twice their size. Brahma calves tend to have small heads, compared to what was coming from those Simm and Char bulls with heads the size of a Volkswagon Beetle. By the time I was 16, I had pulled more c;alves, helping the neighbors, than most cow vets have in their entire career. I developed a deep resentment, even hatred, for these bulls that is hard to over come., even now. Always liked Char and Simm cows though. In the mid 70's when fairs first had commercial classes in cow shows around here, a Simm X Char was what you needed to have a shot at winning. These were big ole pale yellow and white cows, that looked just like a simmental that fell in a bleach bath. Heavy milkers that had no problem spitting out Ang and Hereford calves, as well as Brahma calves. In the mid-70's Chiania showed up. Back then, you could not import Chi cows or bulls, only semen. The first Chi cattle I ever saw were Chi-Angus. I think @Jeanne - Simme Valley said that up north, people were AI-ing Brown Swiss with Chi semen. Anyway, there was a man around Griffin, GA, that raised most of the Simm x Char calves for showing. He had some he kept, and he started AI-ing them to Chianina, and what a cross that was! Weaning 6 mos old calves that were 800 lbs...near as big as full grown Angus or Hereford. I just KNEW this was going to be the future of beef cattle, But 1980 came along, and so did CBA, and that was the end of these Simm x Char x Chi's. Plus about that time, as others have said, Angus and Herford over night got as big as Char and Simmental.
Now days, I have gotten over my aversion to Simm bulls, since we now have black Simms. The breeding up of the Simms, especially with Angus, turned them black and polled, and I would as soon use one of them like the 2 @kenny thomas bought from @simme as any Angus I have seen lately.

When we cleaned out my great uncle's house we found an A.I.catalog from the early 70s.
The Angus bulls had weaning weights in the 300's. The Charolais were in the 6s and 7s. Pretty easy to see how guys would be intrigued to try the new continental breeds.

 

[Ky hills]

@Warren Allison I'd venture to say that several major movers and shakers in Angus and Herefords years ago intentionally brought in other breeds just so they could compete with the continentals.
They didn't have DNA testing back then, and like you said they could easily have made those registrations read anyway they wanted.
It had to be some major breeders and several of them for the breeds to have changed that much that quick.
I went to shows during the late 80's - 90's and it was not just 1 or 2 animals that towered over the rest it was pretty much every thing was similar just a difference in color and color patterns.
I could identify Chianina traits in all breeds Angus, Hereford, Charolais.
Even today in mainstream Angus cattle there are some very popular heavily used lines that are known to throw excess white, and the body types of some of those bulls that started those lines look a lot like black Holstein crosses in the AI catalog pictures.
@ farmerjan is right, those "Angus" cattle at the time. They got so tall so fast it could not have been just a random intentional or accidental thing, from what I saw it had to be a fairly concerted yet covered up venture to introduce other breeds into them.
I for one don't believe the story of how the polled Herefords came to be either, I think they had help from Red Poll, or Red Angus.

 

[Warren Allison]

@Warren Allison I'd venture to say that several major movers and shakers in Angus and Herefords years ago intentionally brought in other breeds just so they could compete with the continentals.
They didn't have DNA testing back then, and like you said they could easily have made those registrations read anyway they wanted.
It had to be some major breeders and several of them for the breeds to have changed that much that quick.
I went to shows during the late 80's - 90's and it was not just 1 or 2 animals that towered over the rest it was pretty much every thing was similar just a difference in color and color patterns.
I could identify Chianina traits in all breeds Angus, Hereford, Charolais.
Even today in mainstream Angus cattle there are some very popular heavily used lines that are known to throw excess white, and the body types of some of those bulls that started those lines look a lot like black Holstein crosses in the AI catalog pictures.
@ farmerjan is right, those "Angus" cattle at the time. They got so tall so fast it could not have been just a random intentional or accidental thing, from what I saw it had to be a fairly concerted yet covered up venture to introduce other breeds into them.
I for one don't believe the story of how the polled Herefords came to be either, I think they had help from Red Poll, or Red Angus.

I am sure you are right. But what I was saying, it wasn't open and honest and publicized like the continental breed's breed up programs were. hse several movers and shaers may have all been privy to it, but it was underhanded and violated AAA rules of registration. It hurt the angus breeders who tried to play by the rules.

 

[TexasJerseyMilker]

Here in coastal SW oregon commercial herds havea lot of 'Smokies'. They are part Charlais part Angus. Many black cows have refinement and have some Jersey in them for extra milk. People raise what works in the area. The yellowy blonde cows have some Sim too. There are some Sim cows on this place right now that resemble ovestuffed couches. Thats a lot of cow to Feed to get a calf IMO.

 

[Ky hills]

I am sure you are right. But what I was saying, it wasn't open and honest and publicized like the continental breed's breed up programs were. hse several movers and shaers may have all been privy to it, but it was underhanded and violated AAA rules of registration. It hurt the angus breeders who tried to play by the rules.

I get what your saying, it would have definitely been against the closed herd book rules. I'm not sure that everyone plays by the rules when money is at stake. I don't know how high up the chain it went but hard to believe some of the folks at the association level weren't in on the secret. As those cattle were very visible at shows and sales and very different from traditional Angus and Herefords.

 

[Warren Allison]

I get what your saying, it would have definitely been against the closed herd book rules. I'm not sure that everyone plays by the rules when money is at stake. I don't know how high up the chain it went but hard to believe some of the folks at the association level weren't in on the secret. As those cattle were very visible at shows and sales and very different from traditional Angus and Herefords.

Yes, greed has cost many a men their eternal soul. Now, while I have never subscribed to the philosophy "The end justifies the means", do you think any good has come out of this scandal...if it did happen... that has benefited the Angus, Angus breeders, and/or the American cattle industry as a whole? Would you say the Angus, Hereford, Charolais and Simmental of my youth, 1973, were better or worse than the Angus Hereford Simm or Char of today, 2023? Or neither better or worse, just different?

 

[simme]

Some people pretend they believe that present day simmental cattle are largely angus and praise the qualities of the "original" simmental. The "simmental" genetics that came to North America were multiple breeds from Europe. The big cattle that came from Switzerland were the actual simmental by name. But the American Simmental Association accepted the Fleckvieh breed from Germany and Austria. And the Abondance, Montbeliard and Pie Rouge breeds from France. And the Pezzata Rosa breed from Italy. Those breeds were accepted as american "simmental" but were from distinct breed registries from Europe. So, were all those original american "simmental" really simmental? I guess all those breeds were related, but still they were different breeds in Europe and were developed over a very long period by crossing cattle in an attempt to best fit their local conditions and needs.

I am sure that there have been infusions of outside genetics into the "pure" closed breeds - angus and hereford. But selection can also make significant changes in a breed. I can't buy that all the changes in cattle from belt buckle size to elephant size to moderate size were due to "cheating". Don't overlook selection within a breed as a way to change cattle - for better or worse.

Are present day cattle better or worse than those from 50 years ago? How many people here owned cattle 50 years ago and can remember their characteristics and performance? Sometimes we tend to evaluate on what we find pleasing to look at. But there are characteristics that affect the economics that need to be considered. Think birth weight, calving issues, weaning weights, docility, rate of gain/time on feed, feed efficiency, quality grade, yield grade, marbling, backfat/trim, fertility, etc. For simmental, the birth weight and calving issues are pretty much gone. The udders and teats are much better. They grade better and marble better. They are easier keeping. Calves are up and nursing sooner and have fewer issues in the feedlot. I think cattle are mostly better overall than before. But, some breeds seem to have moved backwards on feet and udders. Seems like the more extreme you select in some traits, the more attention you need to put into maintaining other traits. That thought can be applied to far more than cattle.

Except for the petting zoo, the purpose of most beef cattle is to ultimately produce beef for eating. The characteristics of that meat for the consumer is independent of breed and the bias within the various levels of the production and marketing side of the beef business. Chickens and pigs are raised in controlled environments. Cows are not. That leaves a lot of room for selecting cattle that fit your situation. But the next buyer/owner up the chain has no appreciation of your needs - only whether the cattle fit their needs.

 

[Ky hills]

Yes, greed has cost many a men their eternal soul. Now, while I have never subscribed to the philosophy "The end justifies the means", do you think any good has come out of this scandal...if it did happen... that has benefited the Angus, Angus breeders, and/or the American cattle industry as a whole? Would you say the Angus, Hereford, Charolais and Simmental of my youth, 1973, were better or worse than the Angus Hereford Simm or Char of today, 2023? Or neither better or worse, just different?

I've heard a lot of different perspectives on that subject. Some people are purists and lament any changes like that.
Others look at it as a necessary evil to compete.
For me personally the, concept of bringing in other breed genetics is something of an ethical argument. Yes it was underhanded and deceitful, but at this point it is what it is. I think it would be better to acknowledge than to sweep it under the rug and try to pretend it didn't happen, which is basically what the associations have likely done.
The breeds have changed since you and I were young, but had they not would Angus and Herefords be as rare as shorthorns today? In the years after Angus cattle became almost twice the size of before, and since moderated some, if other breeds hadn't pushed black hides and moderated their frame would they even be on the radar today?
Things change to meet the market demands however practical or superficial they are, and producers have to find a way to meet that demand.
Another example is the chickens we buy from big hatcheries. Most of those "breeds" are far removed from their original look and characteristics.
They breed other breeds in to increase egg production. The Rhode Island Red pullets I have are very small, and a shade lighter than they would have been years ago. They are supposed to lay more eggs now and the particular strain I have are said to not be likely to produce the same qualities in the next generation.
My Buff Orpingtons are not as heavy feathered as the original birds and some have an occasional dark grey or black tail feather. One of my roosters has almost red wing feathers and is darker yellow/ orange than the others. Most likely from having Rhode Island Red bred into them to up egg production and give more hardiness. Doesn't bother me but some chicken purists would be appalled.
Back to cattle since I have mostly commercial cattle a little excess white on an Angus calf doesn't bother me, but a few years ago when I had some registered Angus bulls to sell one had white beyond where the breed standard allows for, so it would have cost me by not being able to sell him as registered. Turns out he didn't semen check so he wouldn't have sold anyway as a registered or commercial.
I've seen a really nice Angus heifer calf have her registration papers pulled in the sale ring at a registered sale in front of everybody when some folks pointed out excess white. So I can understand the frustration and inconvenience for registered breeders those things cause.

Cattle have definitely changed since my early childhood. Most calves weaned off around 400 lbs in the late 70's early 80's here. Wasn't long until it was more common to see 500# calves.
In a sense yes it's improved, but I often think the old timers didn't put near the expense of fancy mineral and supplements and so forth that we regularly do now yet they still had calves to sell year after year, so have we bred for more dependent cows, but that's another topic altogether I reckon.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Some people pretend they believe that present day simmental cattle are largely angus and praise the qualities of the "original" simmental. The "simmental" genetics that came to North America were multiple breeds from Europe. The big cattle that came from Switzerland were the actual simmental by name. But the American Simmental Association accepted the Fleckvieh breed from Germany and Austria. And the Abondance, Montbeliard and Pie Rouge breeds from France. And the Pezzata Rosa breed from Italy. Those breeds were accepted as american "simmental" but were from distinct breed registries from Europe. So, were all those original american "simmental" really simmental? I guess all those breeds were related, but still they were different breeds in Europe and were developed over a very long period by crossing cattle in an attempt to best fit their local conditions and needs.

I am sure that there have been infusions of outside genetics into the "pure" closed breeds - angus and hereford. But selection can also make significant changes in a breed. I can't buy that all the changes in cattle from belt buckle size to elephant size to moderate size were due to "cheating". Don't overlook selection within a breed as a way to change cattle - for better or worse.

Are present day cattle better or worse than those from 50 years ago? How many people here owned cattle 50 years ago and can remember their characteristics and performance? Sometimes we tend to evaluate on what we find pleasing to look at. But there are characteristics that affect the economics that need to be considered. Think birth weight, calving issues, weaning weights, docility, rate of gain/time on feed, feed efficiency, quality grade, yield grade, marbling, backfat/trim, fertility, etc. For simmental, the birth weight and calving issues are pretty much gone. The udders and teats are much better. They grade better and marble better. They are easier keeping. Calves are up and nursing sooner and have fewer issues in the feedlot. I think cattle are mostly better overall than before. But, some breeds seem to have moved backwards on feet and udders. Seems like the more extreme you select in some traits, the more attention you need to put into maintaining other traits. That thought can be applied to far more than cattle.

Except for the petting zoo, the purpose of most beef cattle is to ultimately produce beef for eating. The characteristics of that meat for the consumer is independent of breed and the bias within the various levels of the production and marketing side of the beef business. Chickens and pigs are raised in controlled environments. Cows are not. That leaves a lot of room for selecting cattle that fit your situation. But the next buyer/owner up the chain has no appreciation of your needs - only whether the cattle fit their needs.

I owned them fifty years ago and we had no clue what an EPD was. It went from being a tool to improving cattle to selling paper IMO.
Big cow back then weighed 800-900 pounds.
We wormed cows once a year and that was it.
The only other time they were penned is for a sale barn ride to Port City Stockyards.
Those old cows didn't get fed through the winter either! They survived or died, truly low maintenance. I have no clue how many calves (dead) I pulled because of Char bulls.
Again that was our stupidity at the time putting those pallet head bulls on those salt grass cows.
We have come a long way!
Again at a TAMU workshop they stated today's cattlemen is raising as much beef on 10 head as 15 25 years ago.
I bet I have seen that double.

These girls are 1500 to 1600 lbs. and just good ole crossbred Brimmer.
I need to dig up an old album of those cows.

 

[Ky hills]

Some people pretend they believe that present day simmental cattle are largely angus and praise the qualities of the "original" simmental. The "simmental" genetics that came to North America were multiple breeds from Europe. The big cattle that came from Switzerland were the actual simmental by name. But the American Simmental Association accepted the Fleckvieh breed from Germany and Austria. And the Abondance, Montbeliard and Pie Rouge breeds from France. And the Pezzata Rosa breed from Italy. Those breeds were accepted as american "simmental" but were from distinct breed registries from Europe. So, were all those original american "simmental" really simmental? I guess all those breeds were related, but still they were different breeds in Europe and were developed over a very long period by crossing cattle in an attempt to best fit their local conditions and needs.

I am sure that there have been infusions of outside genetics into the "pure" closed breeds - angus and hereford. But selection can also make significant changes in a breed. I can't buy that all the changes in cattle from belt buckle size to elephant size to moderate size were due to "cheating". Don't overlook selection within a breed as a way to change cattle - for better or worse.

Are present day cattle better or worse than those from 50 years ago? How many people here owned cattle 50 years ago and can remember their characteristics and performance? Sometimes we tend to evaluate on what we find pleasing to look at. But there are characteristics that affect the economics that need to be considered. Think birth weight, calving issues, weaning weights, docility, rate of gain/time on feed, feed efficiency, quality grade, yield grade, marbling, backfat/trim, fertility, etc. For simmental, the birth weight and calving issues are pretty much gone. The udders and teats are much better. They grade better and marble better. They are easier keeping. Calves are up and nursing sooner and have fewer issues in the feedlot. I think cattle are mostly better overall than before. But, some breeds seem to have moved backwards on feet and udders. Seems like the more extreme you select in some traits, the more attention you need to put into maintaining other traits. That thought can be applied to far more than cattle.

Except for the petting zoo, the purpose of most beef cattle is to ultimately produce beef for eating. The characteristics of that meat for the consumer is independent of breed and the bias within the various levels of the production and marketing side of the beef business. Chickens and pigs are raised in controlled environments. Cows are not. That leaves a lot of room for selecting cattle that fit your situation. But the next buyer/owner up the chain has no appreciation of your needs - only whether the cattle fit their needs.

I agree that selective breeding will definitely accomplish the goals and no doubt a lot of breeders got their cattle bigger by selective breeding.
The only thing is that it takes time to do that and i would think that it would take using outliers which their progeny tend to skew back towards the median.
To me the fast rate at which the change occurred and the color issues etc point towards an external source, at least in some lines.

 

[Ebenezer]

AAA used to have atypical blood type listed on sires. That went away. It was never dealt with that I know about. Just listed. And there were horned Angus in the 70's. That didn't come from pure Angus. The ones with horns were not registered, I hope, but half sibs likely were. One major sire imported in the 70's had one testicle if you look at the pictures well enough. He had widespread use. Nobody talked about it.

AAA has not worked in recent times, willingly, to protect the majority of the members and expel the problem people. The newer defect issues has to be pressed to make headway and even today you can see carrier cattle for sale. That should have been "nipped in the bud" and folks been expelled over that too. It was known too long in source herds to have just let it slide. But it did. They turned the page, forgot the past and started a new chapter.

They did offer a police escort out of the building to a man who told the story to me. He as discussing problems and they did not want to deal with it. More of an authoritarian group than a member group.

SMs that I used were first yellow and white and the last ones were black or black and white. The yellow cattle were superior. The black cattle had extremes of either too much growth or absolutely no ability to deal with fescue. I threw out all of that semen along with the GV semen and have lived happily ever after.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I agree that selective breeding will definitely accomplish the goals and no doubt a lot of breeders got their cattle bigger by selective breeding.
The only thing is that it takes time to do that and i would think that it would take using outliers which their progeny tend to skew back towards the median.
To me the fast rate at which the change occurred and the color issues etc point towards an external source, at least in some lines.

There was plenty of cheating going on as well. DNA has brought a screeching halt to unsanctioned infusion .
It got so bad the Hereford Associate had lines that were green paper on them.
They knew there was hanky panky going on just couldn't prove it then.
If I remember correctly it was the Titan line that was questionable.
Yes frame size is highly heritable but not overnight!
Angus bulls went from 800 lbs to 2K plus in a couple generations.
A lot of the SIMM knock from my day was the results of us not understanding BW and hybrid vigor. It starts at conception.

 

[farmerjan]

To just add a little @Ky hills .... I am very thankful for the APA Standard of Perfection that was written as the "breeds" of chickens have changed with the infusion of other breeds etc to improve this or that... breeding good birds to the standard is what us people showing chickens strive for... and yes, you see variations in different ones as different breeders interpret the standard... there are provisions to breed new colors and for them to be accepted into the standard... and many birds are not bred to the weight and shape and good judges will disqualify a bird for failure to meet those basic standards.
Some of the breeds were hard to breed.... Araucana comes to mind... with the lethal gene of tufted and rumpless... and the Americana was "born" and accepted so that people could have the qualities they wanted...
BUT, they were given a new name and a new set of standards to be met.... not slid in under the radar in the guise of being a breed they were not....

Commercial chickens are as different yet similar as purebred cattle are to commercial crosses... many black cattle are "angus".... mostly..... and called such, but are composites of some others thrown in there... we have MOSTLY angus and crosses and do not hesitate to say so... but we do not show and it does not matter because we do not claim for them to be something they are not...

Are we better off or not??? Some of both I think.... although I do like my "lowline" angus crosses for their build is more like the short blocky angus types of "old"....and they are easy keepers on top of it.... as much as I am not one for alot of change, everything in life changes some....

 

[Travlr]

Well I gotta say I have different memories of cattle in the '70s. In the fifties my dad, and all the neighbors, were running 800 pound Herefords. One of the neighbors bought the first black bull in the valley and kept it at our place for a couple of weeks for some reason. That bull wasn't very large, no larger than the Herefords. But by the '70s the cattle were larger. My first cow in '65 (Hereford) was 1100 pounds and average sized. Dad had one that made mine look small. Mine raised some of the best bull calves I've ever seen to this day.
Most of the cows we had in Arkansas were 11/1200 pounds and average for that area in the '80s, but we were experimenting with larger animals. In SD we moved up to larger cows due to weather. The big cows did better in the blizzards. 14/1500 was about average.

 

[Ky hills]

There was plenty of cheating going on as well. DNA has brought a screeching halt to unsanctioned infusion .
It got so bad the Hereford Associate had lines that were green paper on them.
They knew there was hanky panky going on just couldn't prove it then.
If I remember correctly it was the Titan line that was questionable.
Yes frame size is highly heritable but not overnight!
Angus bulls went from 800 lbs to 2K plus in a couple generations.
A lot of the SIMM knock from my day was the results of us not understanding BW and hybrid vigor. It starts at conception.

Well said.

 

[Travlr]

And just an afterthought since someone mentioned chickens...

Dogs have changed over time too. The AKC was a dependable organization before 1980 or so, and then something happened and all the breed standards started to be ignored. When that happened I think the attitude bled over into other registries and breeds and even species. Some dogs winning competitions are not what the official breed standards would be describing.

 

[alacowman1]

Back when this thread was started, simmental we're taking a big hit at the market..mostly due to not fitting in a group of feeders..the buyer wanted ones that would finish out in the same time frame..if it was large framed with spotted hides prepare to take a beatin..

 

[Rmc]

Anyone who believes that other breeds blood isn't still being introduced into registered herds is fooling themselves.
Why don't all breed associations mandate 100 percent parent verification before an animal can be registered?
Is it because the don't want to deal with the resulting mess that it will cause?
Some breed associations are open about open breed registrations and some aren't , but it has and will continue in all associations unless and until they do parent verification by dna.

 

[Warren Allison]

Anyone who believes that other breeds blood isn't still being introduced into registered herds is fooling themselves.
Why don't all breed associations mandate 100 percent parent verification before an animal can be registered?
Is it because the don't want to deal with the resulting mess that it will cause?
Some breed associations are open about open breed registrations and some aren't , but it has and will continue in all associations unless and until they do parent verification by dna.

Well, it isn't a problem with those breeds doing "breed up" type programs. Nothing dishonest or cheating about it. But it is or can be, a problem in an association with closed books. Even in the open book registries, there still should be the DNA requirements. AL most all horse registries do that now, and it is not the big hassle and expensen that those against it hollered that it would be.

 

[Rmc]

Breeds like angus didn't double in size from their 100 s of year's average overnight without some outside blood. And if you think it stopped there and then you are a fool.
Zero reason right now for every breed registery not to require parental dna verification of every animal registered. Technology is available at a reasonable cost.
Big difference between a pure bred animal and a registered animal.