Whats wrong with Simmental cattle?

[ALACOWMAN]

as a commercial man,,, its good not to be anchored down to any breed.. a good herd of crossbred moma cows and a simple change of bulls will put you right back in the flow

 

[Dylan Biggs]

truth is,, most folks dont know what a angus is suppose to look like

Ah heck Alacowman, suppose to look like? Suppose to look like went out the window with breed standards a long time ago. Don't know if that is good or bad. No shortage of types to choose from, that is for sure, seems to me from a breed standpoint to be more like genetic disorder. The type bell curve gets wider by the day, it may be that breed type diversity is good, or it may as well be at this point. Like you say there was a day when breeds were identifiable by type in addition to color, but heck things have a way of changing. Breeders you can make them look however they like, and if they prove functional for the chosen application then Hooray!!

Here is a cow that is working here so far, in all her imperfect glory, and she is an Angus cow. Would you have guessed it? Her type is my personal prefernce for a maternal range cow application, under my management, in my environment. My goal is to make more of her functional type, more often and more consistently. Give me another 20 years or so and I may have a more or less stabilized type with some degree of genetic order.

 

[Galloways1]

as a commercial man,,, its good not to be anchored down to any breed.. a good herd of crossbred moma cows and a simple change of bulls will put you right back in the flow

Very well said.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

so your saying their suppose to look functional,, well allright, ill take 50 like her :cowboy:

 

[sim.-ang.king]

as a commercial man,,, its good not to be anchored down to any breed.. a good herd of crossbred moma cows and a simple change of bulls will put you right back in the flow

That sure is the way to live. That's why i'm prepered for any color change with these 2 bulls. :lol2: :dunce:

 

[Dylan Biggs]

so your saying their suppose to look functional,, well allright, ill take 50 like her :cowboy:

That is the challenge to my way of thinking, I hope you're a patient fellow. No doubt you are, I hope I live long enough! :cboy:

 

[Anguscattle]

SSGenetics,

We run registered angus and commercial cattle. So both.
You have a good point that i failed tO notice when i typed that. I think your point was "if you dont pay attention to other breeds and what theyre doing, then you most likely wont stay at the top" correct?

 

[Anguscattle]

Sim-ang,

Looks like a good diversity. What breed is the red? Just curious.

 

[SSGenetics]

SSGenetics,

We run registered angus and commercial cattle. So both.
You have a good point that i failed tO notice when i typed that. I think your point was "if you dont pay attention to other breeds and what theyre doing, then you most likely wont stay at the top" correct?

Correct! :nod:

 

[Anguscattle]

Gotcha! And for once we agree on something. Lol
I def think your right.

 

[SSGenetics]

Gotcha! And for once we agree on something. Lol
I def think your right.

:tiphat: lol... We probably agree on many issues, just like a lot on these boards, but maybe some view them a little differently?

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Sim-ang,

Looks like a good diversity. What breed is the red? Just curious.

30/32 PB Simmy, Homo Black ;-)

 

[Anguscattle]

Cool! They look good

 

[bwrickle4444]

And no hybrid vigor bc it has angus? Some of the best breeds out there have angus in them!! Most people forget that angus made their cattle what they are! If you raise brangus, maines, simis, or limis, and a couple more, YOU SHOULD BE THANKING THE ANGUS BREED!

And as sim-ang.king said, fire away! Ill defend that argument anyday! Until your breed has as many registered cattle on the books as the angus breed does, you should just hush. They didnt get where they are by being poor cattle. And if they are so poor, why are they bred into your breed?

And im not trying to tick anyone off, or convert anyone for that matter, just exercising my right to state my opinion.

One thing to keep in mind though is how much Holstein was being used in the '70's and '80's in the Angus breed to improve Milk EPD's and to help get the frame and growth up in Angus cattle. They can prove it was happening now with DNA testing. I agree Angus cattle are great and especially the marbling / carcass traits and low birth weights. But I wouldn't say too much about Angus being one of the few breeds that doesn't allow registering percentage cattle. Where would this breed be if the top breeders hadn't started introducing Holstein blood over those 20 plus years. So maybe we should all be thanking the Holstein breed instead of the Angus breed alone for all the improvements made to these other breeds as you mentioned above.

 

[Ky hills]

One thing to keep in mind though is how much Holstein was being used in the '70's and '80's in the Angus breed to improve Milk EPD's and to help get the frame and growth up in Angus cattle. They can prove it was happening now with DNA testing. I agree Angus cattle are great and especially the marbling / carcass traits and low birth weights. But I wouldn't say too much about Angus being one of the few breeds that doesn't allow registering percentage cattle. Where would this breed be if the top breeders hadn't started introducing Holstein blood over those 20 plus years. So maybe we should all be thanking the Holstein breed instead of the Angus breed alone for all the improvements made to these other breeds as you mentioned above.

I see someone revived an 11 year old thread. Angus have a closed herdbook which means you can only register animals from registered parents. Same with Herefords. Many of the continental breeds came in and had breeding up programs in which percentage calves by a registered purebred male could be registered and bred up each subsequent generation, to purebred status,
Now all that being said, I believe that it's naive of anybody to think that some Angus and Hereford breeders didn't secretly introduce sone other breeds into their respective herds several years ago.
It's not much of a stretch to see influences of Chianina and Holstein in some Angus and Chianina, Red Poll, and old time red and white Simmentals in some Herefords.

 

[SBMF 2015]

It all depends on your situation. Before I was ever thought of my dad had registered Simmentals (Flecks). He sold a bull through the Western Illinois University bull test sale and bought my mom a diamond. Almost fifty years ago. So I grew up thinking that simmentals were pretty cool.
When I started as herdsman/ feedlot manager at my previous job. Simmental was a dirty word. They had a cattle confinement with concrete slats. Simmentals just have too much bone to be able to stand on slats for very long. They would have a lot of joint problems. Plus the way we fed did not work well for their bigger frames.

I still like Simmies. I guess now my biggest overall complaint would be how course a lot of them are in their udder. Big dummy calves and big teats can be pretty frustrating.

 

[alacowman1]

Where is Simm-Angus-king anyway?

 

[Warren Allison]

I see someone revived an 11 year old thread. Angus have a closed herdbook which means you can only register animals from registered parents. Same with Herefords. Many of the continental breeds came in and had breeding up programs in which percentage calves by a registered purebred male could be registered and bred up each subsequent generation, to purebred status,
Now all that being said, I believe that it's naive of anybody to think that some Angus and Hereford breeders didn't secretly introduce sone other breeds into their respective herds several years ago.
It's not much of a stretch to see influences of Chianina and Holstein in some Angus and Chianina, Red Poll, and old time red and white Simmentals in some Herefords.

Well, at least the Continental breed associations were open and honest about it. Like you said, Ang and Hereford are closed books. Someone may have intentionally bought some Holsteins to breed to their registered Angus, but I kinda doubt a major breeder risking doing that. More than likely the blood got contaminated by other breeds in the same way that used to be done with QHs, before AQHA made the DNA requirement for registering about 30 years ago. Someone might have a real nice bred mare, royal pedigree, that died. So, they kept the papers til they found another, even a grade, mare that marched the description...bred her... and used the paper from the dead mare to register the foal. Maybe a filly bred to run, got injured. Maybe the owners knew of another filly...., even a grade, or "mutt" filly...... that looked just like her and was faster than the word of God.
They would race her, and sell her, using the other filly's papers. I have run up on questionable horse traders who would give you one price if you wanted the papers, and another if you didn't, for a mare or a stallion. I turn these people in everytime I find them. And, I have seen cattle traders do the same...give you two prices, one with papers and one without. Either trader did this because they wanted to keep the papers to match up with anther good grade horse or commercial cow. Maybe someone has registered Angus and a commercial herd. Maybe the reg cow died, or the commercial cow had an awesome calf, and they would register her calf using a registered cow's papers. The commercial cow may have had Holstein, black Simm, or Chi-angus blood. Maybe the person actually believed the commercial cow was pure Angus, but that doesn't matter. They knew it wasn't the cow whose papers they used, and this is dishonest and fraudulent. Or. maybe they bought a commercial cow from someone who had put a registered cow's papers with her, and the new owner actually did believe she was registered Angus. All kinds of potential for fraud, intentional or unintentional, especially in Angus, because they can have or sire black calves mixed with most any other kind except maybe Charolais.

 

[farmerjan]

I did some breeding as a relief tech for our Select sires guy for years... and did several farms that had their own tanks... and I can tell you that some of the straws I used were NOT the same breed as the "purebred cows" I was putting the semen into... SS color coded their straws... and when I was done the owner/mgr would take the gun, straw and all, and tell me that they would record the breeding... I never signed any slip that was blank, as to the straw I used, there... but this was back in the 80's... and I was the "servicing tech".....but back then they did not have to prove a tech used a certain straw unless the slip we filled out with SS owned semen had it specifically stated....
Also, I am 5'6"-5'7" or so... I had to use a milk crate to stand on to breed some of the "registered angus cows" on a couple farms... don't tell me they didn't have Chi in them....especially with some of the attitudes some of them had....

 

[Warren Allison]

It all depends on your situation. Before I was ever thought of my dad had registered Simmentals (Flecks). He sold a bull through the Western Illinois University bull test sale and bought my mom a diamond. Almost fifty years ago. So I grew up thinking that simmentals were pretty cool.
When I started as herdsman/ feedlot manager at my previous job. Simmental was a dirty word. They had a cattle confinement with concrete slats. Simmentals just have too much bone to be able to stand on slats for very long. They would have a lot of joint problems. Plus the way we fed did not work well for their bigger frames.

I still like Simmies. I guess now my biggest overall complaint would be how course a lot of them are in their udder. Big dummy calves and big teats can be pretty frustrating.

I was about 10 years old when the 1st Simmental and Charolais started showing up around here. It was the beginning of a dark period down here, almost a plague or epidemic, that costs us close to half the Angus and Hereford cows down here. The first to arrive in a new place of any breed is usually the bulls. People had not experienced this problem with Brahma, that showed up about the same time, and never considered not breeding their 800 lb cows to these new bulls twice their size. Brahma calves tend to have small heads, compared to what was coming from those Simm and Char bulls with heads the size of a Volkswagon Beetle. By the time I was 16, I had pulled more c;alves, helping the neighbors, than most cow vets have in their entire career. I developed a deep resentment, even hatred, for these bulls that is hard to over come., even now. Always liked Char and Simm cows though. In the mid 70's when fairs first had commercial classes in cow shows around here, a Simm X Char was what you needed to have a shot at winning. These were big ole pale yellow and white cows, that looked just like a simmental that fell in a bleach bath. Heavy milkers that had no problem spitting out Ang and Hereford calves, as well as Brahma calves. In the mid-70's Chiania showed up. Back then, you could not import Chi cows or bulls, only semen. The first Chi cattle I ever saw were Chi-Angus. I think @Jeanne - Simme Valley said that up north, people were AI-ing Brown Swiss with Chi semen. Anyway, there was a man around Griffin, GA, that raised most of the Simm x Char calves for showing. He had some he kept, and he started AI-ing them to Chianina, and what a cross that was! Weaning 6 mos old calves that were 800 lbs...near as big as full grown Angus or Hereford. I just KNEW this was going to be the future of beef cattle, But 1980 came along, and so did CBA, and that was the end of these Simm x Char x Chi's. Plus about that time, as others have said, Angus and Herford over night got as big as Char and Simmental.
Now days, I have gotten over my aversion to Simm bulls, since we now have black Simms. The breeding up of the Simms, especially with Angus, turned them black and polled, and I would as soon use one of them like the 2 @kenny thomas bought from @simme as any Angus I have seen lately.