time to look for a bull

[crimsoncrazy]

Just to let you know. For Angus the breed average for CED is +5 and BW is +1.7

 

[Toad]

I'm in a similar situation as you, I have a bunch of cows to breed back for the second time this year. I bought an angus bull last year that I used on them the first time around, he was a CED +9 and BW +.5. These calves have been very easy and I'm going to use the bull again on heifers this year. Now we are looking for a bull to breed these second time calvers to, I was thinking about an angus bull in the CED +4 - +6 and BW +.5 - +1.5 range. Does that sound reasonable?

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I'm in a similar situation as you, I have a bunch of cows to breed back for the second time this year. I bought an angus bull last year that I used on them the first time around, he was a CED +9 and BW +.5. These calves have been very easy and I'm going to use the bull again on heifers this year. Now we are looking for a bull to breed these second time calvers to, I was thinking about an angus bull in the CED +4 - +6 and BW +.5 - +1.5 range. Does that sound reasonable?

To me it does.

 

[highgrit]

I don't care how many calves a cow has had. If you put the wrong bull on the cows you'll have problems. Big Cheese you come up with some terrible advice sometimes. I put a Charolais bull on Angus cows before you were born. All 9 cows had problems. Lost 5 cows, and 7 calves. So don't mislead folks when you say any bull. Because that's what it is BULL.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I don't care how many calves a cow has had. If you put the wrong bull on the cows you'll have problems. Big Cheese you come up with some terrible advice sometimes. I put a Charolais bull on Angus cows before you were born. All 9 cows had problems. Lost 5 cows, and 7 calves. So don't mislead folks when you say any bull. Because that's what it is BULL.

My in-laws had the same thing happen years ago and to this day my MIL absolutely freaks out if I suggest a Charolais or Simmental bull.

 

[highgrit]

They have fixed a lot of the Charolais and Simmental birth weight problems. But the breeders haven't fixed or can fix all the birth weight problems.

 

[skyhightree1]

Once they have a calf they should be OK having calves out of whatever type of bull you want to put on them.

:bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs:

Highgrit is right.That comment will lead someone that doesn't know any better down the wrong path.

 

[nobull82]

I guess I wasn't sure what was more important for 2nd and 3rd Calving cows CED or BW I understand I don't need a heifer bull but at the same time I thought both EPDs go hand in hand.

 

[Jessica06]

I think of CED as being more about the shape of the calf, while BW is, obviously, weight. Seems the trend lately is breeding bulls to be really wide fronted...most of those genetics have really low CED, as they should.

 

[nobull82]

That's kinda what I thought was more shape. A 70 lb calf that's short could cause problems where as a 70 lb calf that's longer and skinny would be easier for the heifer. But being the same BW but a different CED

 

[Katpau]

CED is based on calving difficulties reported on first calf heifers. BW is based on the birth weights reported on all calves. If the bull has a high CED it does not really matter how high the BW is. If one bull has a BW of -1 and a CED of -10, and another has a BW of +3 and a CED of +10, you would be better of choosing the bull with the higher birth weight number, because the data turned in has shown him to be much easier calving than the one with the light weight calves. I personally don't like those tiny little calves. You will lose more of them to weather etc. and the little calves start out behind and often don't gain as fast. A few years back a CED of 5 in Angus was considered a heifer bull. Most heifers should not have a problem with that, unless they have a pelvic measurement that is too small. Some believe that using multiple generations of calving ease bulls has resulted in smaller pelvic area in heifers. Whenever you buy a young bull it is a bit of a gamble. His Epd's are based on his own performance and an average of the parents. They can change a lot, once he starts to produce offspring. They don't always breed like the low accuracy Epd's predict. If you want some assurance, choose AI bulls with high accuracy.

If you are breeding adult cows that calved without problems in the past, I would not worry about using a bull with a CED of 0 or greater. I would be looking at WW (weaning weight), if you are trying to raise calves to sell at weaning. WW averages +50 in the Angus breed at this time.

 

[Toad]

One question I have about CED. I've been told to look at the shape of the bulls head as a way to tell if he will produce problems calving. The guys said the blockier the head the more problems. Any truth to that or is that just something someone dreamed up?

 

[shortybreeder]

That's kinda what I thought was more shape. A 70 lb calf that's short could cause problems where as a 70 lb calf that's longer and skinny would be easier for the heifer. But being the same BW but a different CED

That's exactly right. Saskvalley Primo 40P typically throws calves that are 100+lb but they are really long, slender calves and usually don't have many problems with CE. He's top 30% of the breed for CE, but he's in the bottom 40% for BW. An extra inch or two in the middle can add quite a few pounds of BW.

 

[ANAZAZI]

One question I have about CED. I've been told to look at the shape of the bulls head as a way to tell if he will produce problems calving. The guys said the blockier the head the more problems. Any truth to that or is that just something someone dreamed up?

Look at some primitive breeds, very feminine cows, very masculine bulls, and usually tiny and smooth calves. These tiny calves grow up to become bulls with broad skulls, big crests and blocky shoulders. So I would not say you can always look at a bull and know anything about calving ease or difficulty. It is no coincidence that people collect data for calvings, if you can trust these numbers is another question.

 

[prairietrail45]

One question I have about CED. I've been told to look at the shape of the bulls head as a way to tell if he will produce problems calving. The guys said the blockier the head the more problems. Any truth to that or is that just something someone dreamed up?

I've heard this as well, but more to look at the size of the head, not necessarily the shape. A bull with a small head being more likely to throw calves with smaller heads as opposed to a bull with a giant head in relation to his body size.

 

[fitz]

I'm in a similar situation as you, I have a bunch of cows to breed back for the second time this year. I bought an angus bull last year that I used on them the first time around, he was a CED +9 and BW +.5. These calves have been very easy and I'm going to use the bull again on heifers this year. Now we are looking for a bull to breed these second time calvers to, I was thinking about an angus bull in the CED +4 - +6 and BW +.5 - +1.5 range. Does that sound reasonable?

I have a small herd so just have one Bull on hand at any point. I always look for one I'm comfortable using on replacement heifers but still want ample numbers for WW, YW and MWW. Older cows get a break as he covers them also. Calves I'm getting now are out of a Hybrid Bull with:
CE / 13.7
BW / -1.1
WW / 71.2
YW / 115.9
MWW / 60.6
Heifers are birthing fine so far and cows are dropping them with ease. Calves are small but seem to grow out well. I'll see what they weigh at weaning. No matter as the Bull is gone and just have four more to calf from him.

 

[machslammer]

I use a calf easing char bull on black non heifer cows. Of course cross breeding does not mean the char bull would be calving ease in Angus terms. I found a chart somewhere that converted each breed and used Angus as the standard. Very eye opening. however, my cows have dropped calves nicely out of him with no problems, knock on wood, so far. However, my dad has lost 3 calves, and a heifer 1400# trying to have calves out of a low birth weight sim-Angus bull. Go figure. My heifer calves are 75-80# and bulls 80-110#. I like my cross bred ones as they seem to really outgrow anything else I've tried.