time to look for a bull

[nobull82]

I'm looking for a bull to breed 2nd year and 3rd year calvers. I buy bred heifers so I take it I dont need a heifer bull but still want a lower bw and ced bull? What would be a good epd score in those areas I should start looking at?

 

[bse]

Why do you want low BW high CED on mature cows? If calves are terminal get some growth, replacements something maternal and dont worry that much about BW.

 

[nobull82]

So after a heifer calves there isn't as much need for low BW or higher CED? I was under the impression that it helps with calving difficulties and I should look at WW and YW instead. But then again that's why I'm here so I don't make a big mistake on what I should be using.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Higher CED # is better than lower. I like the middle to the road type epd's.

 

[Nesikep]

Select a bunch of bulls that are good and meaty and correctly structured, then look at the EPD's and see what's close to what you want.

I found I'd rather give up a couple pounds of weaning weight and get better prices for my calves.. I'm not saying I'd give up 100 lbs though!

 

[Jessica06]

We go lighter on BW until their 3rd calf. Not heifer safe, but not cow-only bulls either. Doesn't hurt to be on the safe side.

 

[branguscowgirl]

But if you buy a bull you will have to change your user name! :mrgreen:

 

[Supa Dexta]

Perhaps newbull15?

Taken from Leachman Cattle of Colorado:

' Don't Buy Negative Birth EPD Bulls for use on Cows
We are big advocates of using low birth weight bulls – especially on heifers. However, in today's bull market you will find that good quality heifer bulls cost a fortune. Unfortunately, most heifer bulls give up a lot on growth, muscle, and bone. If you are buying a bull for use only on cows, you should be able to find really good bulls with birth weight EPD's between zero and breed average. These bulls will give you more of the traits you want and cost you less money. At the end of the day, can you really afford to give up 10 pounds or more at birth on a bull that is going to breed your cows? We don't think so! '

 

[nobull82]

So I should be looking at BW and not CED? Is a mature cow considered a 2 or 3yr old or is it after her first calf?

 

[Supa Dexta]

You should still look at both, but not as heavily on the CED as that is a heifer reference. CE/CEM (calving ease maternal) is more for cows. Heifers lose that status after first calf, possilbly '2nd calf heifer' if you push it, but really they are cows at that point. So for a younger cow (you can guage their size and how they calved first time around), I would be looking for something around the breed avg or a tick above, doesn't need to be lower, but doesn't need to be on the high end either.

 

[nobull82]

You mean CE is more for heifers?

 

[Supa Dexta]

CED is calving ease direct. It is the heifer number on how easy a 2 yr old will calve, There's also CE sometime and also CEM. A good CEM will produce heifers that are easier calving.

So

CED - Calving ease direct = 1st calf heifers
CE - Calving ease of a cow
CEM - How good the daughter of the mating will be with her calving ease in the future.

Depends on the breed too, some use different names, and some don't have certain EPD's at all. Simmental calls it MCE for example, rather than CEM

It is sort of confusing, and I'm certainly no expert.

 

[nobull82]

Well thanks for clearing that up. I thought it was all the same

 

[Supa Dexta]

No problem, I edited to try and make it a bit clearer.. But the whole thing is a mess in a way. As some breeds use the same acronym for a different thing it seems.

In angus CED means: Calving Ease Direct (CED) - predicts the probability of calves being born
unassisted out of 2-year-old heifers.

In gelbvieh: Calving Ease Daughters (CED) – Expressed as the percent of unassisted births in first calf daughters. A higher value is more favorable.


So I take that to mean the angus is telling you what the 2 yr old heifer that you bred to is going to calve like. And in gelbveih that is stating what I know as CEM, what the offspring will calve like down the road.

 

[nobull82]

I normally look at Angus and mainly only see ced and cem. That's why I asked if I should look at bw over ced since I'm not breeding heifers.

 

[Supa Dexta]

Always look at both, There is the odd time a light birth weight bull throws weird shaped calves that get hung up (low CED and low BW) and on the flip side there are bulls that throw larger calves, that slip right out (high CED and higher BW). Myself I prefer a slightly larger calf as long as they are coming out ok, so I would choose the higher CED/BW.

For heifers most aim for a High CED with a low (negative most often) BW.

 

[nobull82]

Well thanks again for clearing that up.

 

[Big Cheese]

Once they have a calf they should be OK having calves out of whatever type of bull you want to put on them.

 

[shortybreeder]

Once they have a calf they should be OK having calves out of whatever type of bull you want to put on them.

Be careful, that's not always true. You can still have calving troubles with a low CED bull for the 2nd and in some extreme cases 3rd calf. If you were to put for example belgian blue semen into a 2nd calf smaller framed angus cow, that could become a real nightmare despite the fact that she already dropped one calf.

About the CED with angus/gelbvieh mentioned above, Angus is the only breed I've seen that measures CED specifically with 2 yr old heifers. All others are simply a % of unassisted births total. Angus can probably be more specific though because they are much bigger with more performance data collected, plus most people only look at Angus and CED for their virgin heifers, so they want the data to be as accurate as possible for those people. Just my :2cents:

 

[Big Cheese]

Belgian Blues are different their calves are to big to begin with. Your going to have calving problems alot if you have a big enough herd. Its just going to happen. What I should of said in my statement was most of them should be ok since they had already had a calf. You will still have the occasional calving problem but it should still be ok. I'm not familiar enough with CED to say anything about that.