Stealth Estrus Cattle

[Putangitangi]

Ron, how about a vomeronasal organ transplant? That'd do the trick. I figure that would be the most useful farming tool people like you and I could obtain. We'd have to make sure we were doing heat detection away from road-side paddocks though.

 

[inyati13]

Ron, how about a vomeronasal organ transplant? That'd do the trick. I figure that would be the most useful farming tool people like you and I could obtain. We'd have to make sure we were doing heat detection away from road-side paddocks though.

I may have to check on where I can get one. Can you imagine what the neighbors would think watching me go around each morning checking the cows with my lip curled up. :lol: :lol: :yuck:

 

[highgrit]

Sometimes AI isn't all peaches and cream. I bet Mr. bull wouldn't miss one, no matter how stealth she tried to be.
Inyati, if you can't pick a heat up someone with a job would be out of luck trying to AI. How about putting a heifer bull in with them, and when he starts romancing one pull her out and AI her in 12 hours or so.
I know nothing about AI, but I think something like that would work. As long as your hands on every day.

 

[cow pollinater]

It can be really hard getting those first calvers to breed up. They are cranking milk and trying to grow at the same time so their livers are filtering blood much faster than they normally would and that means that hormones are also being filtered out so she's not getting the proper ques in her bloodstream to cycle properly.
The problem with just a standard ovsync is that it assumes that the cow is producing enough progesterone to build her own cl for the lut to work on and that is fairly often not the case. Cidr inserts are the way to go for syncing non cycling cattle as they give her what she needs to build a cl and you won't get far without one. ;-)

Also, are you only having problems with certain cattle or is it across the board? My thinking is that you may have bred in more milk than your cows can handle without needing a little help getting bred up.

 

[Putangitangi]

From the pictures in that other thread, maybe they're just all too fat and happy to do anything!

 

[cow pollinater]

From the pictures in that other thread, maybe they're just all too fat and happy to do anything!

That could very well be part of it. Fat in the liver will cause just as much problems as production will.

 

[inyati13]

Update: I decided to separate my herd. I pulled the cows I am still determined to AI. Then, I took the bull out of the bull pen and put him in with the cows I am willing to let him breed. This is a 20 month old bull. He is registered by ASA (5/8 SM 3/8 AN). On his Sire side his grandsire is SVF/NJC Built Right N48. His Dam is HPRP (Hudson Pine Rocking P) Stackhouse T092. He passed his BSE at the upper end of the scale on all criteria. Right out of the pen, he made his rounds of every cow. THE NOSE KNOWS. Ruth, I think that transplant would be the trick. He figured out what was going on with the cows in 20 minutes. He settled on Duchess. Here is the two courting:

Keep in mind this was Wednesday. I was in the pasture most of the day watching and making sure he didn't do something goofy like bulls will. This is his first time in a herd of cows.
He courted Duchess all day but she was not standing for him. When I got there yesterday morning her tail was sticking straight out, her chalk was totally gone, and there was semen tracks below her vulva. He was no longer interested in her. He took up with Short Ear. Short Ear was not standing either. When I checked her this morning, her chalk was gone. She was laying down. My cows are totally passive to me. I walked over, moved her tail out of the way and there was a puddle of semen on the ground right under her vulva. She did not even stop chewing her cud while I was doing this check. When I left a while ago, he was in courtship with Skunk Tail.

So at this rate he is breeding a cow per day. These cows are all around 60 to 70 days postpartum.

I was not seeing much clues to these cows being in estrus. I think Skunk Tail was in estrus about 19 days ago because she had mucus and her chalk was gone but it was so cryptic that I did not get her up and AI her. She is the one he is courting today.

My question is this: Did this bull bring them into heat? Does his activities start some hormones flowing or was this all going to happen anyway?

Here is another piece of the puzzle. The ones I separated for AI have a 90 day old bull calf in with them. This calf is beginning to show interest in the cows. I think he is going to give me some help on heat detection on the ones I plan to AI. I may be able to use his vomeronasal organ, Ruth.

CP, that is good info on the liver function. Maybe they are getting far enough post partum that their systems are adjusting because I think this bull is going to get some of these cows bred.

 

[highgrit]

Inyati, be carefull around the bull. Next time he's romancing one of the heifers. Cut her away from him and AI her before you go home or first thing in the morning. In 3 weeks you will know the results.

 

[inyati13]

Inyati, be carefull around the bull. Next time he's romancing one of the heifers. Cut her away from him and AI her before you go home or first thing in the morning. In 3 weeks you will know the results.

None of the heifers are with him. I have them with a 90 day old bull calf that I am hoping can give me some added clues as to what is going on. This bull is young and he seems to have more spirit than my other PB Angus did. I watch him. He acts like he might act up sometimes. Thanks for the concern. :nod:

 

[Jessica06]

We checked the cow today (29 days) that I AI'd on secondary estrus signs and she stuck. So it IS possible. I'm starting to think that mucus doesn't lie.

 

[Putangitangi]

I had a couple of bull calves with my lot which acted as very reliable heat detectors. I've also thought about using an adult bull as a heat detector, if he's the sort to hang around with them for a couple of days before standing heat. Some do, some won't.

 

[inyati13]

We checked the cow today (29 days) that I AI'd on secondary estrus signs and she stuck. So it IS possible. I'm starting to think that mucus doesn't lie.

Do you breed them only if they have some mucus?

 

[inyati13]

I had a couple of bull calves with my lot which acted as very reliable heat detectors. I've also thought about using an adult bull as a heat detector, if he's the sort to hang around with them for a couple of days before standing heat. Some do, some won't.

Ruth did you see my question? Here is one I thought you might know.

My question is this: Did this bull bring them into heat? Does his activities start some hormones flowing or was this all going to happen anyway?

 

[regolith]

I had a couple of bull calves with my lot which acted as very reliable heat detectors. I've also thought about using an adult bull as a heat detector, if he's the sort to hang around with them for a couple of days before standing heat. Some do, some won't.

Ruth did you see my question? Here is one I thought you might know.

My question is this: Did this bull bring them into heat? Does his activities start some hormones flowing or was this all going to happen anyway?

Try google you might find something interesting. I came across a study a while back that confirmed what I call the 'bull effect' but I don't know where to find it now.
I've been a strong believer in the bull effect but observed something within the last couple of years that made me start doubting it, I can't remember what that was.

These are just general observations from the last several years, herd size 130 - 300 cows and two cycles AB followed by two cycles with the bull are the norm... I do remember what made me doubt the bull effect, will get to it in a mo.

Okay, I usually start AI twelve weeks after the start of calving with around twothirds of the herd observed cycling before starting AI.
The cycling cows come in like clockwork 17 - 23 days (but usually 20 - 22) from the last observed heat. I see 98 - 99% of these returns, once mating starts this drops as about 5 - 6% of the apparently pregnant cows cycle at 40 - 44 days.
The noncyclers (not observed, may be anestrus or may be silent heats) come in as time progresses, most of them will be mated in the first three weeks, generally all of them will have been seen and mated by the end of mating.
Cows that had a strong heat can have a near silent heat three weeks later, then a strong one on the next - her previous heat behaviour isn't always a predictor of her next cycle.
When the bull goes out, everything goes crazy for about the first five days... cows come in out of sequence, noncyclers come on heat, cows thought to be pregnant are seen in heat again. Going by the pregnancies resulting, these are true heats.
When the bull is out heat behaviour is depressed... there's less lesbian activity. However watching the bull tells you all you need to know (and the tail hanging out confirms service)
Some bulls will serve cows that aren't on heat because they're bored. So you need to observe for signs that the served cow wasn't on heat too...

Okay, the bit that caused me to doubt the bull effect. I did 100% AI this year and at around the time I would normally put the bull out the crazy 'cycles all over the place' happened as usual. For about three or four years prior to going 100% AI I've been running bulls *instead* of using hormone injections to bring in non-cyclers and been happy with the results. Very often several of them come on about two days after the bull goes out.

 

[Jessica06]

We checked the cow today (29 days) that I AI'd on secondary estrus signs and she stuck. So it IS possible. I'm starting to think that mucus doesn't lie.

Do you breed them only if they have some mucus?

This was the first time I've bred one that wasn't standing. It was 21 days after the others cycled from the sync protocol. I strongly suspect the other cows just weren't interested, but an unrubbed patch is an unrubbed patch. The other cow had been AI'd 21 days prior to bulling and mucus, and was open when we checked her at about 32 days. She had lots of mucus, but I thought it might have been a false heat since she didn't stand. If they stand, I breed them mucus or not!

 

[inyati13]

I had a couple of bull calves with my lot which acted as very reliable heat detectors. I've also thought about using an adult bull as a heat detector, if he's the sort to hang around with them for a couple of days before standing heat. Some do, some won't.

Ruth did you see my question? Here is one I thought you might know.

My question is this: Did this bull bring them into heat? Does his activities start some hormones flowing or was this all going to happen anyway?

Try google you might find something interesting. I came across a study a while back that confirmed what I call the 'bull effect' but I don't know where to find it now.
I've been a strong believer in the bull effect but observed something within the last couple of years that made me start doubting it, I can't remember what that was.

These are just general observations from the last several years, herd size 130 - 300 cows and two cycles AB followed by two cycles with the bull are the norm... I do remember what made me doubt the bull effect, will get to it in a mo.

Okay, I usually start AI twelve weeks after the start of calving with around twothirds of the herd observed cycling before starting AI.
The cycling cows come in like clockwork 17 - 23 days (but usually 20 - 22) from the last observed heat. I see 98 - 99% of these returns, once mating starts this drops as about 5 - 6% of the apparently pregnant cows cycle at 40 - 44 days.
The noncyclers (not observed, may be anestrus or may be silent heats) come in as time progresses, most of them will be mated in the first three weeks, generally all of them will have been seen and mated by the end of mating.
Cows that had a strong heat can have a near silent heat three weeks later, then a strong one on the next - her previous heat behaviour isn't always a predictor of her next cycle.
When the bull goes out, everything goes crazy for about the first five days... cows come in out of sequence, noncyclers come on heat, cows thought to be pregnant are seen in heat again. Going by the pregnancies resulting, these are true heats.
When the bull is out heat behaviour is depressed... there's less lesbian activity. However watching the bull tells you all you need to know (and the tail hanging out confirms service)
Some bulls will serve cows that aren't on heat because they're bored. So you need to observe for signs that the served cow wasn't on heat too...

Okay, the bit that caused me to doubt the bull effect. I did 100% AI this year and at around the time I would normally put the bull out the crazy 'cycles all over the place' happened as usual. For about three or four years prior to going 100% AI I've been running bulls *instead* of using hormone injections to bring in non-cyclers and been happy with the results. Very often several of them come on about two days after the bull goes out.

Good response, thanks. It seems to me that the bull could be triggering some component of the total reproductive cycle. I wondered to myself if a postpartum cow may form a follicle and the bull is the catalyst for the ovum to complete maturation and be released from the follicle.

Here is the scenario I am observing right now. I have 4 open cows in a group of pregnant cows. The 4 open cows have calves nursing. Nursing in mammals is known to suppress the reproductive cycle. In comes a bull. He goes around and the vomeronasal organ picks up the pheromones of the open cows. He picks up on the one with the highest levels. In my herd, he focused on Duchess. He starts licking her. Nosing her vulva. The total package of his activities starts to stimulate her. Her ovum was already in the maturation process but the hormones begin to flow as a result of his attention and bingo, she goes into estrus and he breeds her. Eventually, she ovulates and his sperm cells are in the right formation to attack, breakdown the zona pellucida and form the zygote.

Why do I believe this? I just got back and he has bred the third cow in 3 days. He only has one left. Out of four open cows, he has bred 3 in 3 days. That would be an amazing coincidence.

 

[Putangitangi]

I had a couple of bull calves with my lot which acted as very reliable heat detectors. I've also thought about using an adult bull as a heat detector, if he's the sort to hang around with them for a couple of days before standing heat. Some do, some won't.

Ruth did you see my question? Here is one I thought you might know.

My question is this: Did this bull bring them into heat? Does his activities start some hormones flowing or was this all going to happen anyway?

Sorry, saw it then forgot to comment. It works in sheep, so perhaps. I may not be in a good position to tell, in that on my relatively small place, the bulls are never far from the cows anyway (I have a ridiculous number of bulls for my small herd, since I breed them and like to use the best ones if I don't sell them). In sheep it's not a physical presence, it's the pheromones. I'd be inclined to believe the same in cattle.

 

[inyati13]

Ruth,

Turn a Bull out with a bunch of cows and the pheromones are where he starts. He keeps on them and they tell him which one is ripest. He sticks to her. Licking, nosing, contacting her. May even be frustrating to the cow. These activities would logically stimulate her endocrine system. Maybe even her neuropituitary physiology. I think that is why I saw 3 of my 4 open cows come into heat in the first three days he was out with them. The last open cow is a first time calving heifer and has a calf on her. As CP pointed out, the demands on her are great. May take her a bit longer. Yesterday, he was leaving her alone. But when those pheromones are emitted, he will be on them. THE NOSE KNOWS!

 

[dun]

I discussed this with the vet this morning. One of his clients breeds about 80 heifers every year. He puts patches on them and has them right agaisn;t a very not fence with a bull on the other side. I guess he's done it for years and always seems to catch the girls in heat.
The heifer we gave the GnRH and lute to never did cycle that I could see. Yesterday morning I turned her in with the bull. He sniffed her then ignored her all day. This morning he has no interst in her but her patch is red and the hair on her back is rough. I guess we'll know in september when we preg check.

 

[branguscowgirl]

I too usually have a young bull in an adjoining field to the cows. Usually he or the heifer/cows will walk the fence line when in heat. Some will even beller for a day or so.