frame size/cattle type based on owned or leased pasture

[customcattle]

Has anybody every heard of or put any thought in to varying the size or type of cattle you run based on whether you own the land/pay a flat rate, or if you pay on a per head per day basis while on pasture? I'm not trying to beat the dead horse, but it goes along with the conversation of being able to run more cows on less ground if you have smaller framed cows. This, as we all know, allows us to spread more production over a fixed cost, as long as we own the land or are paying a flat rate/acre for lease. Putting a term to it the goal is to wean more pounds per acre in this scenario.
If we are leasing on a per pair per day basis (like most everybody does in my part of the country), should we be thinking more about weaning more pounds per pair rather than the aforementioned more pounds per acre?

 

[Stickney94]

Interesting question.

This past fall we got a low budget scale to capture production weights. I've been pondering the small framed cows concept.

Our cows weaned off in a range from 39% to 49% of body weight. The most efficient cow by that metric (and a "small framed cow") weaned off a calf 120 lbs lighter than our top weaned calf and 25 lbs lighter than the cow that was at 39%.

There are some variables involved with those differences (calf gender, breed, calving date, etc), but it definitely gave me pause about getting to much smaller with my cows.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Yes.
No.
A related option is to rent pasture for big cows and run growthy yearlings at home.

 

[wbvs58]

Seems like a logical thing to do on the surface, have bigger cows with growthy calves but I guess you would have to do the sums as it might work out better paying a bit more for more smaller cows weaning more calves.

KEN

 

[Stocker Steve]

Our winter is longer than the summer, so it depends.

 

[Ebenezer]

A trip to the sale barn and watching the FS influence on calf prices will give you the ability to figure this one out with a PhD degree.

 

[Post Oak]

A trip to the sale barn and watching the FS influence on calf prices will give you the ability to figure this one out with a PhD degree.

You are right. Anything below a frame 5 starts stepping into the dairy/longhorn/hereford price territory in my neck of the woods.

 

[Stocker Steve]

A trip to the sale barn and watching the FS influence on calf prices will give you the ability to figure this one out with a PhD degree.

You are right. Anything below a frame 5 starts stepping into the dairy/longhorn/hereford price territory in my neck of the woods.

Don't need a frame score 5 cow to get a frame score 5 calf.

 

[customcattle]

Don't need a frame score 5 cow to get a frame score 5 calf.

Exactly. I had this discussion with a gentleman yesterday. He raises purebreds, sells bulls, and was making his pitch as to why he needs those larger framed cows. I agree, in his situation he needs those larger framed cows if his goal is to produce large framed bulls. Most commercial operations need a cow that is going to be more feed efficient, so often times they give up that frame size. The bull producer comes in to add value to the commercial producers product by adding frame to the calves coming from those moderate framed mothers.

People get caught up in thinking they need those big framed cows to get a big framed calf, but the truth is if you are picking your genetics right on both sides, you can achieve a 5,6, maybe 7 frame score on your calves, with a cow that has a 4-5 frame score by breeding her to the right bull.

 

[customcattle]

Seems like a logical thing to do on the surface, have bigger cows with growthy calves but I guess you would have to do the sums as it might work out better paying a bit more for more smaller cows weaning more calves.

KEN

I agree with having smaller cows on land where you are getting to decide the stalking rate. That would be a case of making the land more efficient by weaning more pounds per acre. Where I'm from however, most lease situations the land owner tells you how many pair you can run, and you pay on a per pair per day basis. In that situation, my theory is that rather than weaning the most pounds per acre, a person needs to be trying to run as few head as possible, and focusing on weaning the most pounds per pair as possible.

 

[customcattle]

Our winter is longer than the summer, so it depends.

Yes sir, that dang sure needs to be taken into account. Where I am, we run on corn stalks through the winter paying on a per head per day basis.

 

[MO-Ruminants]

Interesting question.

This past fall we got a low budget scale to capture production weights. I've been pondering the small framed cows concept.

Our cows weaned off in a range from 39% to 49% of body weight. The most efficient cow by that metric (and a "small framed cow") weaned off a calf 120 lbs lighter than our top weaned calf and 25 lbs lighter than the cow that was at 39%.

There are some variables involved with those differences (calf gender, breed, calving date, etc), but it definitely gave me pause about getting to much smaller with my cows.

What was the % of body weight on that lighter calf?

 

[Stickney94]

What was the % of body weight on that lighter calf?

49%. (I wasn't sure what to expect as this was my first year collecting this data -- my herd average was 43%.)

To the OP's question, I think weighing at weaning would be needed to make sure you put cows on the rented pasture that will maximize pounds produced. For some environments/producers that may be a smaller lighter cow. For others that may be a bigger cow.

My one year/minimal data left me with as many questions as answers.

One thing that I saw in a presentation last week that is sorta common sense but possibly forgotten, keeping a tight calving window and maximizing the # of calves born at the beginning of the window leads to increased weaning weights.

In the OPs question, maybe he moves all of his early calvers into that per pair rented pasture to help maximize lbs produced.

 

[Stocker Steve]

You can estimate cow forage consumption as a % f body weight x forage cost, and then subtract this from gross calf dollars, to answer some of your questions. When I do this my "big cow" gross margin is $50 to $100 per head less than "moderate cow" gross margin when fed on my acres. Not a huge absolute number, but there are not alot of producers who are currently making $100 per cow per year. Plus big cows sell for more. So every fall I sort off and sell some of them as breds.