Something to stir the Red Angus pot
- Thread starter dun
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dieselbeef
Well-known member
troublemaker....(ya got me fella)
Dun,
What traits of Ch. Canyon are detrimental to the breed? I assume that part of your concern is his horrible Daughter Calving Ease score; it is a concern of mine. However, I've talked to several producers who have daughters of his in production who have not experienced any calving problems.
Though AI is a powerful tool (which I use exclusively), I am concerned that is does allow for way too much influence of some bulls in other breeds as well (i.e. SLC Freedom in the Gelbvieh breed).
Happy 2007!
UG
What traits of Ch. Canyon are detrimental to the breed? I assume that part of your concern is his horrible Daughter Calving Ease score; it is a concern of mine. However, I've talked to several producers who have daughters of his in production who have not experienced any calving problems.
Though AI is a powerful tool (which I use exclusively), I am concerned that is does allow for way too much influence of some bulls in other breeds as well (i.e. SLC Freedom in the Gelbvieh breed).
Happy 2007!
UG
OP
OP
dun
Well-known member
The duaghters calving ease is one, but also the apparant belief that his some kind of magic bullet. I just perused the NWSS sale catalog and the majority of the animals being offered have him in their pedigree. I don;t like the narrowing of the gene pool that much. A neighbor RA breeder used him and kept his daughters and was really pleased that he didn;t have many calving problems the first year. So the next year he kept some more daughters and bred them to a bull that he had used on heifers in the past and ended up with a train wreck. The first year he used an ultra low BW ultra high CE bull but was disappointed in the calves growth.
He no longer has anything on his place, he only runs about 200 head or so, that has any CC in them.
He no longer has anything on his place, he only runs about 200 head or so, that has any CC in them.
VanC
Well-known member
When promotion and advertising convinces people that something is the next "magic bullet", they want to be a part of it and tend to jump on the band wagon. This is not only true of certain bulls, and even entire breeds, but of many things in life. We are like sheep at times, and more so now than ever with our ability to spread information far and wide in an instant.
Don't know anything about Cherokee Canyon except what I hear and read. Somebody must like him for him to be so widely used. Do his sons sell well? His carcass numbers look good.
Don't know anything about Cherokee Canyon except what I hear and read. Somebody must like him for him to be so widely used. Do his sons sell well? His carcass numbers look good.
OP
OP
dun
Well-known member
VanC":3orew33u said:
His sons sell well and it's his carcass numbers that made him popular. Now it seems that everyone and their neighbors cat has a CC son. Their daughters calving ease numbers generally suck too. Too often I see people that will use a bull with a very low number for a specific trait and breed it to a cow with a very high number for the trait. When people only look at the offspring they see those balanced numbers and think they've really got something. I've never yet seen a bull or cow from those sort of matings that end up being the average. They alwasy tends towards on extreme or the other. The problem is trying to figure out which extreme they're going to be, if you want that extreme aqnyway. If you did want the extremes you would be using the balanced numberd animal in the first place.
dun
SEC
Well-known member
Some old story, just a different breed.
I am not sure why more people don't make a concerted effort for outcross genetics. That being said, I am not talking about using the scarred bulls like Dan Patch, Lonestar, Bold Ruler etc.
There are plenty of outcross genetics around, most people aren't strong enough on their own to do their own thing.
I am not sure why more people don't make a concerted effort for outcross genetics. That being said, I am not talking about using the scarred bulls like Dan Patch, Lonestar, Bold Ruler etc.
There are plenty of outcross genetics around, most people aren't strong enough on their own to do their own thing.
ollie'
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One reason that some don't is the difficulty in finding outcross genetics that are as good as the mainstream genetics. The well known genetic lines work better in some instances or they wouldn't be as popular as they are. An example is Romeo. He must do some things right by looking at his numbers (if you believe them) but obviously as much as he's been used, there aren't many complete bulls sired by him.SEC":2r5oe02h said:
OP
OP
dun
Well-known member
Frankie":35cstgzg said:So what Red Angus bull do you want to have a big influence on the breed? Which one would you tell people to use instead of CC (if they asked).
I'ld prefer that no one bull have a large influence. I don;t think there is any one "do it all" bull in any breed. That's one of the reasons I asked earlier about 6I6.
In my opinion there are breeders that are getting away from the type of animal that the breed was built on.
I feel you can have your cake and eat it too. That's what AI has allowed. I read an article somewhere the other day and the author was discussing the importance of the cow and cow family since with AI anyone can breed to any of the great bulls. By using a bull that detracts from the cow family side through offspring that don;t make really top cows I feel that it may be hurting the breed. Next thing they'll be chasing the elusive "next target", larger, smaller, more hair, less hair or whatever the fad is at the moment. But (according to my wife) I'm opinionated crotchety old fart .
dun
SEC
Well-known member
I don't believe for a second that outcross genetics are hard to find, one just has to look for them. Who all has used semen out of a bull from a farm that nobody has heard of.....Not very many.
We want people to identify with what we are doing.
Sams Prospector would be one of the greatest outcross bull the Red Angus breed has known. In Canada, the semen is next to impossible to get, otherwise he would get used a bunch.
FCC Rambo gets lots of attention as a great cowmaker, that's not neccesarily true. He will sire good ones, but every bull will, most Rambo's are tight wound, tighter hided .....just not soggy enough doing.
We want people to identify with what we are doing.
Sams Prospector would be one of the greatest outcross bull the Red Angus breed has known. In Canada, the semen is next to impossible to get, otherwise he would get used a bunch.
FCC Rambo gets lots of attention as a great cowmaker, that's not neccesarily true. He will sire good ones, but every bull will, most Rambo's are tight wound, tighter hided .....just not soggy enough doing.
SEC
Well-known member
You would have to do business with a Cdn then. ;-)
RedAngus121
Well-known member
Ive seen some really good cattle out of him. We have a Grandson of his rite now that is really good. Ive seen several good cows out of him as well. But i havent been in the breed long enough to really know.
I think the bulls that are doing the red angus breed alot of good are the bulls like Perks advance 121R, BRG's Red Dawg bull. Bulls that will bring alot of power and proformance to the breed.
I think the bulls that are doing the red angus breed alot of good are the bulls like Perks advance 121R, BRG's Red Dawg bull. Bulls that will bring alot of power and proformance to the breed.
SEC
Well-known member
Ollie, check your PM
We've not used Cherokee Canyon, but did buy a couple cows that are bred to him to calve this spring. We'll see how they are, but I would prefer they were bred another way. I prefer to not have mainstream genetics.
About the Canadian sires. I think there are some good ones. The pics I've seen of Ole's Oscar are nice and Aspen Hills Excel looks good. I saw some good YY Red Knight's that looked promising.
ABS just got a nice looking outcross Golden Boy son that looks like he could do the breed some good. There are outcross genetics available, just look around.
About the Canadian sires. I think there are some good ones. The pics I've seen of Ole's Oscar are nice and Aspen Hills Excel looks good. I saw some good YY Red Knight's that looked promising.
ABS just got a nice looking outcross Golden Boy son that looks like he could do the breed some good. There are outcross genetics available, just look around.
SEC
Well-known member
things aren't always what they seem
fellersbarnoneranch
Well-known member
I have been in Glacier Chateau depression--anyone else with me on that one? (NO SINGLE BULL slaps perfection evenly across the board) Happy New Year strangers!!! Hope ya'll are well!
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Dun-
You are exactly right! It certainly has happened to the Black Angus in the past - and it is happening again to the same breed! I think that it is because most people can't stand prosperity, and have to prove that THEY have found the "Golden Fleece" and will breed every cow in sight to prove it!
The business of perpetual improvement is a continual and on-going effort to study the BASICS of cattle breeding, and not go off on a "wild hair" tangent. Don't just believe everything that you hear, just because you heard it!
DOC HARRIS
