Slow fleshing = Simmental.

[freddiej51]

hey guys,i have a question.
what are the 2 most breeds used to cross breed in the world?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Angus and Hereford in the North American Continent.

In India and Africa it could be a toss-up!

DOC HARRIS

 

[southpaw]

All they are doing is borrowing traits from the Angus like calving ease, lowered birth weights, easier keeping, and of course the black hide while maintaining their own "pure status"

How can you "borrow" a trait? If these traits came from Angus influence then they don't have a "pure" status anymore! Isn't it a little dishonest to try to pass of your cattle as CAB when you know they aren't? Or maybe they are? Maybe there's more Angus influence than you think.

You have a point with the most of the popular Angus being "influenced" by other breeds. At least the Angus cows I have haven't been outcrossed or tainted. They won't set any growth records either but at least I know they are purebred

 

[Brandonm2]

How can you "borrow" a trait?

Pretty easy. Let's do a hypothetical. Let's say you are a Registered Angus breeder in 1969. You got 150 head of easy keeping easy fleshing frame score 1,2, and 3 Mamas. All of a sudden you ain't winning any shows any more and your bull buyers are telling you they want more growth or are out buying Charolais bulls. You sell off your linebred Sunbeam 1 and 2 frame score bulls (8 years ago your most popular bloodlines) and keep back a bunch of heifers out of your biggest cows; but even with AI you still got a herd of frame score 3s and a few 4s and everybody is now saying that your cows (the biggest they have been in 25 years) are dinks and it looks to you like it is going to take a really long time to get the frame score 6 bulls your buyers are telling you they want. You need a shortcut so you find yourself a beefy all Black Holstein bull. You cross him to 10-20 of your Angus cows out back. You keep back the two biggest, framiest bulls and the biggest framiest heifers from that cross and breed them all Angus and keep back the biggest and best of those .75Angus:.25 Holsteins and you falsify pedigrees to cover up that importation. What you have done is borrow that Holstein's frame score and that height. NOW you are winning shows and selling bulls again. Some of your fellow purebreeders look askance at the Roman-nosed heads on some of your "Angus" heifers; but most of them need growth in their own herds and they want to get back to winning shows and selling bulls again too so they don't call you down on it and instead are buying semen and heifers. I have no personal knowledge that any of this ever happened; but I have talked to a lot of knowledgable people who lived through this era who insist that it did and I have owned registered Angus cows that really looked more that a litte Stein.

This is all even easier if you are a Simmie (or Limmie or Gelbvieh) breeder in the late 80s. CAB is taking off and the bull buyers are telling you that the red calves ain't bringing what the Black calves are bringing. Also you have been chasing frame and showring ribbons for a decade. A decade in which the biggest calf in the class usually won the class. Now your bull buyers are telling you that their 3/4 cows are hayburners and they can't afford to feed them anymore. You want to take some frame off of them and make them black. You drive down to the Angus guy down the road and buy a dozen Scotchcap daughters, you breed them to the bull of your choice and keep every black heifer, breed those back and keep the Black ones, and then keep that up. At 7/8s you are now in the Black bull business and selling semen all over the country to your fellow breeders and flushing those black 7/8s cows so soon your whole herd is black and moderate framed. That would not even be cheating in most of those associations that allow "breeding up".

This may sound like "heresy"; but sometimes a breed survives by delivering what the market wants EVEN IF that means sacrificing some of the breed's purity to get those traits.

 

[MikeC]

Brandon, Do you know the frame score of the "HIGH SELLING" Angus bull at the Auburn Bull Test Sale a few years back?

 

[la4angus]

PEOPLE!!!!! WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE.
THE MAN HAS BEEN MISINFORMED ABOUT THE TYPES OF SIMMI CATTLE THERE ARE.
JUDGING BY THE WAY HE HAS DISCRIBED HIS COWS THEY ARE OF THE SWISS STRAIN NOT THE FLECKVIEH OF GERMANY.
THE SWISS IS A SLOW FLESHING TYPE OF CATTLE AND MILK LIKE CHAMPS AND ARE NOTED FOR THEY'RE HIGH BUTTER FAT QUALITYS.
THE FLECKVIEH IS A DUAL PURPOSE BREED MILK AS WELL AS FLESHING.
SIR YOU JUST HAVE BEEN MISLEAD ABOUT THE TYPE OF BASE BULL YOU NEED.
THIS COMES FROM OVER 30 YEARS OF RESEARCH IN THE SIMENTAL BREED SWIS,FRENCH.AND THE BETTER OF THE 3,THE FLECKVIEH.
AS FAR AS THE SIM/ANGUS CROSS YES THEY ARE A COMPOSITE AND ARE GOOD IF YOU WANT THIS,BUT A FULL FLECKVIEH WILL DO A BETTER JOB OF UP GRADING YOUR COMERCIAL HERD.
HERFORD AND ANGUS ARE GOOD BASE FOR A COMERCIAL HERD
BUT THE FOUNDATION TO BUILD ON IF YOU WANT THE POUNDS WOULD BE A FULL FLECKVIEH SIMENTAL WITH CALVING EASE.
I'VE HAD NO PROBLEMS WITH THEM FOR 10 YEARS JUST GOOD ABOVE AVERAGE WEAN WEIGHS.

freddiej51. Would you mind lowering your voice. We can all hear just fine. In other words unlock the caps. That is considered shouting.

 

[Brandonm2]

Lovana was a seven (I think the first seven they had had there). I worked the pens in the sale a few years later when the AVERAGE Angus on the test was a 6.7 and we had a frame score 8 Angus bull there who surpassed Lovana in every number (except $$$ that is).

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Southpaw - you are naive to think you KNOW that your cattle are PURE. When "the neighbors bull out back" was (and I'm sure still is) used to produce "purebred registered" cattle, there is no control over generations of "impure" lines.
Now, you can say, well, it "couldn't be more than 1/300% of a different breed". Well, that is exactly what I am saying about many of the black Simmentals today. Some of them are current upgraded cattle, but MANY are from back in the late 60's. I owned 1/2 blood BLACK simmies in 1971. And I have cows in my herd that go back to my original 1/2 bloods. You figure the % of "other breeds". And it is totally HONEST to upgrade with any breed or non-registered crossbred.
And, no one is "cheating" using the CAB program. CAB has no BREED requirement. They have to be 50% black hided - period! After passing that live requirement, than they have to pass the carcass requirements.

 

[cypressfarms]

CAB has no BREED requirement. They have to be 50% black hided - period! After passing that live requirement, than they have to pass the carcass requirements.

They can also have 2" hump (I smell a brangus), and other all welcoming traits. You have to admire the job the angus people have done to promote the breed, and as a side affect the industry as a whole.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

CAB has no BREED requirement. They have to be 50% black hided - period! After passing that live requirement, than they have to pass the carcass requirements.

They can also have 2" hump (I smell a brangus), and other all welcoming traits. You have to admire the job the angus people have done to promote the breed, and as a side affect the industry as a whole.

I totally agree! Many people complain that the AAA is being dishonest about the program. No way! It is a program designed & run by AAA so it bears their name Certified Angus Program - but they made no breed restrictions. They "recommend" that the cattle is at least 1/2 Angus. The carcass requirements make the probability of the meat being a pleasurable eating experience for the consumer. This has increased the awareness of the general consumer of "quality" beef. Yes, the consumer THINKS they are eating ANGUS - but what is "perceived" may be wrong, but it has increased BEEF production/consumption - this helps ALL of the beef industry.
Hats of the them - great promotion.

 

[southpaw]

Southpaw - you are naive to think you KNOW that your cattle are PURE.

You don't have belittle of get your point across. And yes our cattle our purebred! Only have bought from three different breeders that have impeccable reputations for over 50 years.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Southpaw - you are naive to think you KNOW that your cattle are PURE.

You don't have belittle of get your point across. And yes our cattle our purebred! Only have bought from three different breeders that have impeccable reputations for over 50 years.

Southpaw - Don't take offense at well-meaning comments here. We are not belittling you. The problem that often occurs in explanations is that old demon - SEMANTICS - the meaning of certain words. To help us all get on the same wave length of meanings, grab your "Websters" dictionary and look up these words:
1) purebred -
2) realistic (definition 2) -
3) reality check -

"impeccable reputations" are vital in the BUSINESS world of any product - beef cattle certainly being no exception. However the true understanding of the term 'purebred' dispells the notion that something ominous, detrimental, or unfavorable is present when the subject of 'upgrading' is discussed in reference to purebred or registered cattle. It is a matter of percentages and realism.

DOC HARRIS

 

[southpaw]

Instead of belittle maybe I should have used the word patronize because I don't buy their line of BS!

Doc Harris, I've been around businesses of all types and sad to say that I have run a across more crooks in the cattle and livestock industry than in any other. So until I know more about someone and their program I take a very guarded postion.

Semantics is a word with a forked tongue. Upgrading is fine but I don't call changing the hide color upgrading. Its just trying to pass your cattle breed for another. What happens in 20 years when red for example is the color of choice? Are all the continental going to "upgrade" with that fad as well? Where does it stop? When does the tail stop wagging the dog?

 

[southpaw]

BTW...purebred- belonging to a recognized breed with characters maintained through generations of UNMIXED descent.

I think that is pretty realistic. I might also add that if mixed descent is discovered that animal should be culled. Not use another breed to "upgrade" or change hide color.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

BTW...purebred- belonging to a recognized breed with characters maintained through generations of UNMIXED descent.

I think that is pretty realistic. I might also add that if mixed descent is discovered that animal should be culled. Not use another breed to "upgrade" or change hide color.

I am not disagreeing with the definition, but my purpose in citing the term "purebred" was the operative word "Generations". In other words, how many generations are significant? Just a thought!

DOC HARRIS

 

[andybob]

S.R.R,
I know of several breeders who use Simmental in the F1 stage of a terminal breeding programme, and some who use them for frame and milk in a 3 way rotational cross, but not as a terminal breed. Two ranches with their own feedlots, running 2000 breeding cows use these two rotational crosses; Afrikana, Simmental,Hereford .The second; Brahman, Simmental, Angus semen with Sussex bulls to clean up. The crosses must work well for herds of this size to have continued for 30+ years without any other breed tested found to be suitable as replacement for any of the existing breeds used.
Doc Harris,
The most popular breeds in Zimbabwe prior to the industry disappearing into a black hole were; Afrikana Brahman and Sussex dictated by climate etc. South Africa, Namibia and Botswana would be similar, the Tuli is making inroads into the Brahman and composite breeds in these countries.
Concerning upgrading, I read in a Shorthorn magazine about 20 years ago that Shorthorn was used to "beef up" the Charolais, anyone aware of this?

The hurrier I am, the behinder I get!

 

[Brandonm2]

S.R.R,
I know of several breeders who use Simmental in the F1 stage of a terminal breeding programme, and some who use them for frame and milk in a 3 way rotational cross, but not as a terminal breed.

I remember when that was pretty common. A large framed beefie Sim would be used on British or British x Ear cows to produce more pounds at weaning in a trailer load of cross calves. Obviously a more moderate framed modern Simmie does not make the terminal sire that an 80s 8 frame 2700 lber did.

I read in a Shorthorn magazine about 20 years ago that Shorthorn was used to "beef up" the Charolais, anyone aware of this?

Nope, I have heard a lot of claims. That was the first time for that one.

 

[Caustic Burno]

CAB has no BREED requirement. They have to be 50% black hided - period! After passing that live requirement, than they have to pass the carcass requirements.

They can also have 2" hump (I smell a brangus), and other all welcoming traits. You have to admire the job the angus people have done to promote the breed, and as a side affect the industry as a whole.

I totally agree! Many people complain that the AAA is being dishonest about the program. No way! It is a program designed & run by AAA so it bears their name Certified Angus Program - but they made no breed restrictions. They "recommend" that the cattle is at least 1/2 Angus. The carcass requirements make the probability of the meat being a pleasurable eating experience for the consumer. This has increased the awareness of the general consumer of "quality" beef. Yes, the consumer THINKS they are eating ANGUS - but what is "perceived" may be wrong, but it has increased BEEF production/consumption - this helps ALL of the beef industry.
Hats of the them - great promotion.

I think the Angus people have done a great job of marketing, but IMO it's a matter of time until some consumer group files a lawsuit for fraud and hurts us all. Every store you walk in claims they are selling CAB beef. There is not enough Angus in the country to supply all the outlets that claim they are selling Angus beef. Here lies the problem as I see it the average American consumer they believe they are buying Angus beef not black hided beef. It is cleaver wording at best but when the average person walks to the meat counter it isn't giving the guideline to meet CAB it says Angus here in lies the problem.

 

[cypressfarms]

Here lies the problem as I see it the average American consumer they believe they are buying Angus beef not black hided beef. It is cleaver wording at best but when the average person walks to the meat counter it isn't giving the guideline to meet CAB it says Angus here in lies the problem.

I don't believe that the average person walking in to the grocery store could tell an angus from a watusi. The only reason that they pick the cab marked packaged is because it has name recognition, not that it is better quality. They feel that by purchasing the package marked with the cab label, they are buying the best for their family.

Could they be sued for fraud? Sure, anyone can sue for anything, but "cab" would win because the cab program outlines what certified angus beef means, so it's not fraudulent. The possible public mistrust of the cab label is far more costly than a fraud suit.

I think the average person in the country has a mental picture of a holstien when you say cow to them (even gateway), and angus when you ask them for what's good beef. Both of these are o.k. The cab program has used and developed that image to the benefit of all of us.

 

[CattleAnnie]

For what it's worth, we've had straight bred Fleck's for cows, Fleck/Ang cross cows and they've been very easy keeping cows and productive. Good milkers and throw thickbacked calves. Really made some dandies.

Also had some Fleckvieh linebred (right terminology?) bulls, and they sure made some cracking calves on our cows. Of course, it always helps whatever you're crossing to have quality animals on both the dam and sire side if you're going to be producing quality calves. No matter what breed you're working with.

Not trying to put a dog into the fight, but figured that seeing as an opinion on Flecks was asked for, might as well offer one as far as experience with them goes.

This being said, I sure do like the Fleckvieh lines as opposed to the monster framed things my Dad was raising in his purebred Simmental operation about fifteen years ago. Talk about turnip teated, two thousand pound gigantic cows! Overall they were quiet cattle, but must have been a pain for anyone in the feedlot to finish their calves and try to make a buck on them after feedcosts and time filling up a pen were figured into the equation.

Take care.