Pharo cattle company

[bird dog]

My cows are all commercial and not very good at that. What seems to work best here is 1100 to 1300 lb cows. My grass is poor. My calves never ring the bell, nor do I expect them to. I am thrilled if they bring the average. My calves wean off 550 to 625 depending on rainfall. I run a black Limo bull(s).

A few years back a big well respected angus farm near me was selling out as the owners were retiring. They had quite a few mid age and older bred cows selling that were bred to their best bulls. I thought that this would be a good time to get some good cows that would add some good genetics to my herd. I bought 8 of them. I was anxious to see how these high class calves stacked up against my herd. The cows were all in the 1500 to 1600lb range.

Well I was hugely disappointed. The calves were no better than the calves my cheap ass sale barn cows. Not only that, but about half the cows did not rebreed on time. I guess you could say I learned my lesson and I should be happy with the results of my average cows bred to a average bull and producing average calves on my below average ranch. I kept the big cows for a couple years and after breeding them to my bull, I had some decent calves that maybe sold a few nickles above average. The packer market had a spurt and I sold all but one of the big cows. Out of the 8, one turned out to be a very nice animal that would raise a calf in proportion to her size.

Moral of the story, like the others have said, find out what works best on your place and don't let others sway you into the hype of better genetics improving your herd. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. Your environment determines a lot. If you don't have the resources to take full advantage of the higher genetics, than you are spinning your wheels and will be disappointed. A good bull breeding average cows of decent size and frame will do just fine here in the southwest.

 

[elkwc]

Elkwc I appreciate detailed explanation. I have a followup. Frame score is based on height correct? But that isn't gut capacity. (BTW is that also termed "spring of rib" in fancy cattleman sales talk?) And also would the ratio of gut capacity to animal weight be more meaningful? I need to take a picture of one of my favorites an old Hereford who is low and wide and has a nice udder. I've thought about flushing her - she is at least 15 -because I've seen few like her.

I've always struggled to put together what factors make the perfect cow. Some pefect looking cows dont breed back. Then, I have old ugly 33 who has a roach back and small gut and doesn't do all that well with fescue but breeds back albeit as a fall calver and raises a decent calf. It ain't all looks.

Davie IMO depth and length add volume. Length also adds pounds. Spring of rib is a term I've heard used most of my life. It can best be observed from the rear or front. It is the amount the ribs arch out. The opposite is a slab sided heifer or cow.
I agree there are outliers and they defy the odds. I sold a top producers 2 weeks ago. A hard keeper on our place but did everything right,

 

[Ebenezer]

By using efficiency tested sires and genetics. I was always taught there is no better time too cull a herd than in a drought. Those genetics that are less efficient stick out. Those that are compatible with your environment will maintain condition on the same available feed the others struggle on.

There is no better time to culls than when the prices are up and the cattle have any added value that you can put on them such as flesh for killers or late gestation for replacements. To sell in a drought is a pure money loser or a hay/feed saver - however you look at it.

 

[Ebenezer]

The use of AI and shorter (height) resultant calves keeps coming up. Some of this is purely lack of environmental fit. If they AI sire fit, the growth would be obviously better. But most performance in AI sires is likely fed in and not 100% bred in. Dr. Bonsma said that if the calf crop for a bull had bull calves smaller than heifer calves, on average, the lack of environmental fit via gestational programming was the issue. Yet the world keeps chasing the low BW bulls. So I think it is thinking in a rut.

 

[elkwc]

There is no better time to culls than when the prices are up and the cattle have any added value that you can put on them such as flesh for killers or late gestation for replacements. To sell in a drought is a pure money loser or a hay/feed saver - however you look at it.

We will have to agree to disagree. Prices are good now but I will always follow the advice of a cattle person who have been at it for years. Like I said prices are good around here,

 

[elkwc]

We will have to agree to disagree. Prices are good now but I will always follow the advice of a cattle person who have been at it for years. Like I said prices are good around here,

When an issue is exposed is the time too sell. Putting feed in one waiting for a higher price don't make economical sense.

 

[rocfarm]

No

Rocfarm the environment dictates many things including frame size and weight. We each have to find the best balance for our operation and what will return the most dollars per acre.!

Actually not always about dollars per acre, either. When multiple generations are involved, sometimes you just gotta keep people happy as long as you are not going broke. And hunters also contribute to dollars per acre here in Texas as well, so it sometimes can pay to reduce your herd to improve the amount of wildlife…

But I pretty much agree.

But then again,
Investing is also all about what you pay for what you get. My newbie cull cow herd's calves are probably going to get hammered at the auction in 16 months unless my cheap bull happens to just throw great calves. But I didn't pay much for them, so it could still work out, even if the 'real' cattlemen will be smirking at the calves.

If it does work out, I hope to slowly get to a market-pleasing herd, though. Have a few cows that might be able to contribute the makings of a good herd over the long term, and I'm working on being able to pick the right bull. Might take about 6 to 8 years to get there, though.

Thanks for the response.

 

[rocfarm]

Elkwc I appreciate detailed explanation. I have a followup. Frame score is based on height correct? But that isn't gut capacity. (BTW is that also termed "spring of rib" in fancy cattleman sales talk?) And also would the ratio of gut capacity to animal weight be more meaningful? I need to take a picture of one of my favorites an old Hereford who is low and wide and has a nice udder. I've thought about flushing her - she is at least 15 -because I've seen few like her.

I've always struggled to put together what factors make the perfect cow. Some pefect looking cows dont breed back. Then, I have old ugly 33 who has a roach back and small gut and doesn't do all that well with fescue but breeds back albeit as a fall calver and raises a decent calf. It ain't all looks.

Agreed. Number one factor is a live calf on the ground that makes it to auction day in ok condition. And as hard as it is to get cows that do that really well, on my place that ugly momma cow will always get to stay as long as she keeps doing that in a timely manner (as long as the calf sells halfway decent).

But the other factors can mean the difference between thriving profitability and just getting by with that calf-on-the-ground factor being equal.

One thing that I have seemed to observe in the cattle market is that if you sell privately, though, people want to see pretty cows and herd homogeneity (even if it's not real, as a lot of ranches just sort like looking cows to sell together when their overall herd has lots of variation as to actual caves they'll throw). It seems to increase people's willingness to buy your cattle at a premium.

But at the auction, this might not usually be the case. They just look at pure profit, and I guess one caveat is that you CAN sell calves that aren't EXACTLY what the market wants and still be more profitable than others doing everything 'right' sometimes (maybe less than perfect frame scores or the wrong color, etc.). I know I didn't buy on looks, but expected profit. Looks might or might not matter as much depending on what they are going to do with that calf next, or, more importantly, just the actual percentage profit/ROE they feel they are going to make.

Example: If you could pay $1200 per head for 10 black angus cows who you would need to keep a $5000 bull on to keep producing nice calves that would sell for $1000 each year and need the best nutrition/are high maintenance, or you could pay $450 for 14 easy-keeping corriente cows that fit your environment ok and, when bred back to a $2000 unregistered beef bull, will sell for $700 on average, which would you buy?

For a poorer guy like myself, the answer seems obvious. I bet that the rich guys' decisions might surprise some as well. After all, you don't usually stay rich if you consistently make poor investment decisions.

 

[Ebenezer]

Extremes in examples mean nothing.

Agreed. Number one factor is a live calf on the ground that makes it to auction day in ok condition. And as hard as it is to get cows that do that really well, on my place that ugly momma cow will always get to stay as long as she keeps doing that in a timely manner (as long as the calf sells halfway decent).

But the other factors can mean the difference between thriving profitability and just getting by with that calf-on-the-ground factor being equal.

One thing that I have seemed to observe in the cattle market is that if you sell privately, though, people want to see pretty cows and herd homogeneity (even if it's not real, as a lot of ranches just sort like looking cows to sell together when their overall herd has lots of variation as to actual caves they'll throw). It seems to increase people's willingness to buy your cattle at a premium.

But at the auction, this might not usually be the case. They just look at pure profit. I know I didn't buy on looks, but expected profit. Looks might or might not matter as much depending on what they are going to do with that calf next or just the actual percentage profit they feel they are going to make.

Example: If you could pay $1200 per head for 10 black angus cows who you would need to keep a $5000 bull on to keep producing nice calves that would sell for $1000 each year and need the best nutrition/are high maintenance, or you could pay $450 for 14 easy-keeping corriente cows that fit your environment ok and, when bred back to a $2000 unregistered beef bull, will sell for $700 on average, which would you buy?

For a poorer guy like myself, the answer seems obvious. I bet that the rich guys' decisions might surprise some as well. After all, you don't usually stay rich if you consistently make poor investment decisions.

No $5000 requirement on a black bull. Corriente cross here will bring a lot less. But as long as you are able to pay your way, that is what it is all about. Keep up the rhetoric.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Just because you have black cows does not mean you need a $5000 bull. We can all make up oddball "examples".
I have a top end herd, and I sell my bull calves for $1850. You just have to raise it for a winter before he is ready. There are lots of cheaper bulls out there. Find a herd ready for a new bull. Buy their old bull. Just because they are selling him doesn't mean he's poor quality.

 

[rocfarm]

Just because you have black cows does not mean you need a $5000 bull. We can all make up oddball "examples".
I have a top end herd, and I sell my bull calves for $1850. You just have to raise it for a winter before he is ready. There are lots of cheaper bulls out there. Find a herd ready for a new bull. Buy their old bull. Just because they are selling him doesn't mean he's poor quality.

Agree, too. But the market seems to always try to convince me otherwise. Just watched the 44 Farms auction on Superior. Even their cheaper bulls were $5000. I really loved the look of those bulls, too. I know the higher up you go on volume the more a higher-dollar bull can make sense, but for someone with a place whose herd-size is limited and who has another job, that route is just not profitable due to both capital costs and input/extra care requirements.

If I was in your neck of the woods, I'd come knocking to get one of those younger 16-month-old bulls to put on my herd (or even try to get a 10 month old and grow him myself each year) and then also try to get most of the money back out of that bull after putting 500 to 800 lbs of size and condition on him through the two breeding seasons I used him for. I plan on selling my current 19-month-old bull at around 3 with just that hope that I'll get back most of what I paid and end up getting the breeding service for the cost of feed/grass and mineral.

This model was my original plan before I had a 3-month-old-unfilled auction order for a young bull that fit the bill this last month. At that point it became no calves on the ground next October or buy a bull off of a neighbor at a premium to get that calf crop. Not much of a choice for me, and, after a few hard knocks in life, I do know enough that if I can't deal from a position of strength it's usually best to withdraw and wait (this is why I bought my first herd during a drought-hoping the future market bump will help provide forgiveness for the inevitable mistakes I made).

But I don't plan to be in that situation again. Will keep a cheaper plan B in place from now on for sure, probably in the form of a retained you g bull I can use in a pinch if something comes up.

Always enjoy your admonishments, though, @Jeanne. Convinced you have made a lot of the wannabe cattleman seeking your advice a little less green.

 

[Dave]

Example: If you could pay $1200 per head for 10 black angus cows who you would need to keep a $5000 bull on to keep producing nice calves that would sell for $1000 each year and need the best nutrition/are high maintenance, or you could pay $450 for 14 easy-keeping corriente cows that fit your environment ok and, when bred back to a $2000 unregistered beef bull, will sell for $700 on average, which would you buy?

For a poorer guy like myself, the answer seems obvious. I bet that the rich guys' decisions might surprise some as well. After all, you don't usually stay rich if you consistently make poor investment decisions.

If I was going to buy a $5000 bull I would have an additioal 20 cows for him to breed. Those 10 cows would cost $300 a month on leased pasture. Those 14 Corriente cows would cost $420 a month on leased pasture. For a 7 month grazing that is $2,100 for 10 Angus and $2,940 for the 14 Corriente cows. Neighbor sold 2 semi loads of 550 pound Angus steers for $1,270 a head (his bulls don't cost $5.000). I see Corriente cross calves selling for under $1.00 a pound and most don't make 400 pounds. So you need to be lucky to get $400. Your numbers and example don't come anywhere near matching reality. I have a neighbor who is about 50 years old. He started out with nothing but a work ethic. He now runs about 1,000 cows on tens of thousands of acres. He didn't go from nothing to what he runs now making poor decisions and there isn't a Corriente on his place. But if it makes you happy, I am happy.

 

[rocfarm]

If I was going to buy a $5000 bull I would have an additioal 20 cows for him to breed. Those 10 cows would cost $300 a month on leased pasture. Those 14 Corriente cows would cost $420 a month on leased pasture. For a 7 month grazing that is $2,100 for 10 Angus and $2,940 for the 14 Corriente cows. Neighbor sold 2 semi loads of 550 pound Angus steers for $1,270 a head (his bulls don't cost $5.000). I see Corriente cross calves selling for under $1.00 a pound and most don't make 400 pounds. So you need to be lucky to get $400. Your numbers and example don't come anywhere near matching reality. I have a neighbor who is about 50 years old. He started out with nothing but a work ethic. He now runs about 1,000 cows on tens of thousands of acres. He didn't go from nothing to what he runs now making poor decisions and there isn't a Corriente on his place. But if it makes you happy, I am happy.

Don't know how the math works where you're at, but A&M puts out annual lease rates for Texas. Your numbers per month are way off down here. Most Texas ranches would jump at those rates, I think. And my scenario is that you can't run more cows than 10. Or, to be more accurate, 12000lbs of momma cow )I just calculate my herd size based on weight, not numbers). Some of us do face the problem of not being able to scale up (read my other post.

And @WarrenAllison would disagree with you on what you can get for corrientexbeef crosses, and he knows a bit. Heck, even Greg Judy, a great marketer, has said starting with corriente is a profitable way to go for poor guys.

And I'm pretty sure that I have bought a 450$ cow (not corriente, but it also illustrates my point about what you pay vs. what you get) that will raise a $700 calf by next summer. The calf is on the ground now, so I'll try to update you. Got about $60 of feed and mineral in her, so if she doesn't breed back, hoping to sell her next fall in better condition than I got her in and make $1200 to $1300 gross. Pretty good math in my book. Can then take that money and buy one of those nice Angus mommas, hopefully (if the cattle market don't go crazy, that is). If she breeds back, I'll just keep her til she stops having calves.

I also have a corriente heifer that I paid less than $120 for as a calf and have about $200 in feed and grass invested in that I'm trying to breed to a beef bull right now. By the time I sell her first calf I figure I'll be at about $450 to $500 total cost, so if she actually raises a calf I'll try to post the pic and how I did financially.

As far as the older guys, love and respect!

But our world ain't the one they came up in. Gotta adjust and adapt.

And just because someone's older doesn't mean you yourself don't know what you are doing.

 

[rocfarm]

Extremes in examples mean nothing.

No $5000 requirement on a black bull. Corriente cross here will bring a lot less. But as long as you are able to pay your way, that is what it is all about. Keep up the rhetoric.

Didn't say it was a requirement. But check out the 44 Farms sale from recent days. Seems 5000 is pretty much the set price for a nice black Angus bull at a bull sale…

 

[rocfarm]

Didn't say it was a requirement. But check out the 44 Farms sale from recent days. Seems 5000 is pretty much the set price for a nice black Angus bull at a bull sale…

Same as above, too. I have a corriente heifer I'm trying to get bred to a beef bull. I'll post what I sell her calf for if she successfully raises one. Open to being wrong. At least I put my money where my mouth is.

 

[rocfarm]

When an issue is exposed is the time too sell. Putting feed in one waiting for a higher price don't make economical sense.

Unless the feed is cheap grass not being utilized. Know guys in Texas that have never been without ungrazed pasture, even during bad droughts. Keeping cattle a bit longer is not as painful for them, although the extra protein costs make them a little less profitable during that time.

Talked to an old hand two weeks ago and he's decided to keep his stocking rate at 30% of capacity for the foreseeable future. Can't see him hurting from keeping something a little longer, say, overwintering a thin, barren cow then letting her fatten up in spring to sell in better condition, especially if his protein supplement is cheap.

 

[mwj]

That 70% unused capacity still has a cost. Land and fences are not free for the taking. You have to figure all costs before you declare a profit.

 

[Dave]

Don't know how the math works where you're at, but A&M puts out annual lease rates for Texas. Your numbers per month are way off down here. Most Texas ranches would jump at those rates, I think. And my scenario is that you can't run more cows than 10. Or, to be more accurate, 12000lbs of momma cow )I just calculate my herd size based on weight, not numbers). Some of us do face the problem of not being able to scale up (read my other post.

And @WarrenAllison would disagree with you on what you can get for corrientexbeef crosses, and he knows a bit. Heck, even Greg Judy, a great marketer, has said starting with corriente is a profitable way to go for poor guys.

And I'm pretty sure that I have bought a 450$ cow (not corriente, but it also illustrates my point about what you pay vs. what you get) that will raise a $700 calf by next summer. The calf is on the ground now, so I'll try to update you. Got about $60 of feed and mineral in her, so if she doesn't breed back, hoping to sell her next fall in better condition than I got her in and make $1200 to $1300 gross. Pretty good math in my book. Can then take that money and buy one of those nice Angus mommas, hopefully (if the cattle market don't go crazy, that is). If she breeds back, I'll just keep her til she stops having calves.

I also have a corriente heifer that I paid less than $120 for as a calf and have about $200 in feed and grass invested in that I'm trying to breed to a beef bull right now. By the time I sell her first calf I figure I'll be at about $450 to $500 total cost, so if she actually raises a calf I'll try to post the pic and how I did financially.

As far as the older guys, love and respect!

But our world ain't the one they came up in. Gotta adjust and adapt.

And just because someone's older doesn't mean you yourself don't know what you are doing.

The lease rates here are very often by the head per month and $30 a month for cow/calf is not unusual over a lot of the west. Anything under $20 a month is considered a great deal. I have read Greg Judy's books, about 25 years ago. As with everything there are points to learn but it isn't all the gospel. As for Warren the term all hat and no cow comes to mind and I will leave it to that. If you want to take others word for what works best listen to people who actually own cattle and have done it for years. Even better find people who make their living off cattle.
As for the older guy comment, if you consider a 51 year old man as older...... well I have one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel. I started raising my first calf in 1959. I bought first steers and bred cows on my own in 1967. I have been at this a few years. Probably 25-30 weeks of the year I sit in 2 cows sales every week. I know and talk to buyers who buy for huge feedlots I see what they buy and don't buy. I see what those Correinte and Longhorn cross calves sell for and I understand why they bring what they do.
You might go read my longhorn cross thread. Those are real actual numbers from cattle purchased and sold in 2022.
You seem to be one to read and research things. Look at what Jim Gerrish has written about pasture management. There are a number of others I could recommend if you are interested. These are people who I know personally not key board experts.

 

[farmerjan]

There are lots of sales that show bulls averaging $5k... here we figure 3500 gets you a pretty decent bull. We have bought many in the 2-2500 range.
I fully agree with the finding a farmer wanting to get a new bull (maybe he keeps some heifers and don't want them breeding back to sire)... We have bought several that way over the years. Got a nice bull now, came from a herd dispersal, bought as an adult of 4-5 yrs old...NO PAPERS or INFO... Just looking at the calves the cows with him had on the ground;..... still using him and we have had him for 7 years. Don't know how much longer he will be good, but he has more than earned his price; about 2200 if I remember correctly.
Bought the "old bull" from our friend when he was "trading him in"... and kept him for several years. Always liked his calves. Paid cull bull ...pound ... price.

We rent alot of smaller pastures and have to have multiple bulls to put out since AI is not an option at most places. So I can keep track and not use a sire on a daughter very often.
We have 2 calving ease bulls we bought when we were first getting to where we could afford something better than a "stockyard bull". Got one in 2013 and one in 2014... STILL use both on heifers... Quiet gentle easy breeders. Not had one heifer get hurt/rode down.... Both will stay until they quit making good semen. I can use them on heifers that are not their direct daughters so not directly in/line breeding. We don't keep alot of heifers out of heifers but do keep some. If they are out of good cows that have a good track record and they are in the "better" than their peers, they get kept. I like to see what the heifer does before I keep a calf out of her... but when you know the "family" then they get a better consideration.

Most of our cows are in the 1100-1200 range and it seems to work for us. Some have some dairy in the woodpile from my first cows... some are recent dairy crossed cows, from heifers I raised on nurse cows and then bred them. Have culled out the more "dairyish" ones because they have trouble holding their weight and breeding back. If they are a 1/2 dairy/beef... they get run out with the beef animals... make it or leave. Sold 2 this past year... nice calves plenty of milk... and came up open.... BYE..... if I have one I use to foster a calf on or raise 2 calves, they have a different set of standards and rules to follow. If one comes up open and will take a 2nd calf after I wean her own, she goes back to get bred....
Dairy cows are my passion I guess you would say... But they have to earn their keep in my situation. But the value is in making them pay their way.... and pay you something back for all your inputs....

 

[Rmc]

The lease rates here are very often by the head per month and $30 a month for cow/calf is not unusual over a lot of the west. Anything under $20 a month is considered a great deal. I have read Greg Judy's books, about 25 years ago. As with everything there are points to learn but it isn't all the gospel. As for Warren the term all hat and no cow comes to mind and I will leave it to that. If you want to take others word for what works best listen to people who actually own cattle and have done it for years. Even better find people who make their living off cattle.
As for the older guy comment, if you consider a 51 year old man as older...... well I have one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel. I started raising my first calf in 1959. I bought first steers and bred cows on my own in 1967. I have been at this a few years. Probably 25-30 weeks of the year I sit in 2 cows sales every week. I know and talk to buyers who buy for huge feedlots I see what they buy and don't buy. I see what those Correinte and Longhorn cross calves sell for and I understand why they bring what they do.
You might go read my longhorn cross thread. Those are real actual numbers from cattle purchased and sold in 2022.
You seem to be one to read and research things. Look at what Jim Gerrish has written about pasture management. There are a number of others I could recommend if you are interested. These are people who I know personally not key board experts.

If you are such a expert , ship all your cattle south to Texas , where the op is and see how well they hold up in those conditions.
Even if you are 51 years old with 70 years of raising cattle I don't think you have any experience raising cattle in the area the op is in so you have no clue what cattle will make money in those conditions