Registered cattle

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Exactly! A record of ancestry, A pedigree....will make your cross bred cattle sell for more money. A pedigree, vet records, DOB, weaning weight, birth weight. number of calves she produced. IT cost you nothing to keep accurate and maybe 10 cents to print off for buyers. Lots of registered cows sold at local auctions or private treaties. for little to no more than a similar quality. Now we aren't talking buying 5-figure cows or 6 figure bulls to breed for calves to sell at a local auction. The man I mentioned above had bought 30 reg Black Simm cows and 30 reg Chi-Angus cows when he started. Don't know if he joined both associations, or if you have to be a member to register or transfer...I dunno. He may have just kept the papers. and not transferred them to him self He didnt need to...the info he wants is on the papers, no matter who the registered owner is. Having that pedigree , and the other info, helped make those cross bred pairs bring $1000 more than other good pairs did that day. I fail to see what is "ludicrous" or "questionable" about that.
Yeah, they are all registered to him, @Warren Allison. He will breed one using sexed semen from a bull the same breed as the cow, once she is getting up there in age to get a heifer to replace her. He will then register that calf. He hasn't bought any outside cows since he bought the original 60. I am with you. I don't see anything ridiculous about him keeping up with the genetics of these Chi-Ang x black Simm heifers. I t must work well, because he sells out every year, and doesn't not even have a website or FB business page for his farm. The cattle speak for themselves. The little package with both parents' papers and the info page is what makes them sell for higher prices than most commercial heifers do. I dont get the "questionable" comment, either. He can tell the buyer the heifer is homozygous for both black and pollled, and has the documentation to prove it.
 
Yeah, they are all registered to him, @Warren Allison. He will breed one using sexed semen from a bull the same breed as the cow, once she is getting up there in age to get a heifer to replace her. He will then register that calf. He hasn't bought any outside cows since he bought the original 60. I am with you. I don't see anything ridiculous about him keeping up with the genetics of these Chi-Ang x black Simm heifers. I t must work well, because he sells out every year, and doesn't not even have a website or FB business page for his farm. The cattle speak for themselves. The little package with both parents' papers and the info page is what makes them sell for higher prices than most commercial heifers do. I dont get the "questionable" comment, either. He can tell the buyer the heifer is homozygous for both black and polled, and has the documentation to prove it.
That's right. I remember him telling me that now. Myself,, I wouldn't be opposed to bringing in outside cows with new genetics, but I guess he believes in the old saying " If it ain't broke...don't fix it".
 
I will offer an alternate view. "Papers" are a record of ancestors, not evidence of genetic purity or superiority. The idea that the old breeds are "pure" is just wrong. Cows were not created with papers. A few hundred years ago, similar cattle in an area were accepted into a breed registry. Do you think that those first cattle accepted into the angus or hereford registry did not have any crossbreeding behind them through the ages? They were all angus or hereford for thousands of years even before any written records were kept? I suspect the situation is no different than the people in that area. I suspect there was some visitation and relocation in all those genetics.

If anyone thinks that American simmental, Simangus, beefmasters, brangus, etc are "polluted", they just need to be enlightened. They have "papers" and were developed to meet a need for cattle that excel in an environment. "polluted"? I don't think so. Some of those "pure" angus and polled herefords of the 50's and 60's have probably benefited from "pollution" as well.

Angus association says that everything needed for cattle is in the angus breed. No other genetics needed. Progressive breed associations recommend cross breeding. It gives longevity, heterosis, fertility and such.

Just my opinion.
Well said, @simme . Agree 100%.
 
Yeah, they are all registered to him, @Warren Allison. He will breed one using sexed semen from a bull the same breed as the cow, once she is getting up there in age to get a heifer to replace her. He will then register that calf. He hasn't bought any outside cows since he bought the original 60. I am with you. I don't see anything ridiculous about him keeping up with the genetics of these Chi-Ang x black Simm heifers. I t must work well, because he sells out every year, and doesn't not even have a website or FB business page for his farm. The cattle speak for themselves. The little package with both parents' papers and the info page is what makes them sell for higher prices than most commercial heifers do. I dont get the "questionable" comment, either. He can tell the buyer the heifer is homozygous for both black and polled, and has the documentation to prove it.
Yeah, I don't know why he doesn't do at least a FB page. He probably gets some marketing benefit from supplying heifers and steers to the 4H and FFA kids, but how much more would he benefit if he had a FB page and posted the pics of the kids and cattle and the trophies and ribbons? There is one family that buys heifers from him, that breeds them to reg Hereford bulls, and they show these black baldies too. They actually do have a FB page, and on it they will mention where the dams of their show cattle comes from.
 
Something else that needs to be said...

This idea that crossbred cattle now have "papers" is pretty ludicrous. This entire polluting of the breeds with outside genetics to get color, or anything else for that matter, is highly questionable.
It's the same way with the dog world, everyone wants to breed to a poodle or Golden…. So I totally get what your saying!
 
Yeah, I don't know why he doesn't do at least a FB page. He probably gets some marketing benefit from supplying heifers and steers to the 4H and FFA kids, but how much more would he benefit if he had a FB page and posted the pics of the kids and cattle and the trophies and ribbons? There is one family that buys heifers from him, that breeds them to reg Hereford bulls, and they show these black baldies too. They actually do have a FB page, and on it they will mention where the dams of their show cattle comes from.
Yes, he loans a donkey-broke to lead heifer to 4 kids a year..2 4H and 2 FFA. He supplies feed, hay and the show supplies and pays entry fees. The kid keeps any prize money.

He will do the same with 4 donkey-broke steers a year as well. Or, the parents can buy the steer for just $500, and it is theirs to sell at the end of the season. I think most people do buy the steers. I think they get a gear bag with Sam's farm logo or name on it. And maybe a cap or T-shirt. So, you are right: Very little advertising.
 
Yeah, I don't know why he doesn't do at least a FB page. He probably gets some marketing benefit from supplying heifers and steers to the 4H and FFA kids, but how much more would he benefit if he had a FB page and posted the pics of the kids and cattle and the trophies and ribbons? There is one family that buys heifers from him, that breeds them to reg Hereford bulls, and they show these black baldies too. They actually do have a FB page, and on it they will mention where the dams of their show cattle comes from.
If I had your money, Warren, I'd buy 8 -10 of those heifers from him and breed 4-5 to a reg polled Hereford and the other 4-5, I would AI using a polled Brahma\'s sexed semen. You would want all those F1s to be heifers.. Get that youngest grandboy of yours, and my oldest daughter to show the Herefords. I will keep them at my place for you' haul them for you., feed em at every event, etc. Gordon them for their momma t be right back.
 
If I had your money, Warren, I'd buy 8 -10 of those heifers from him and breed 4-5 to a reg polled Hereford and the other 4-5, I would AI using a polled Brahma\'s sexed semen. You would want all those F1s to be heifers.. Get that youngest grandboy of yours, and my oldest daughter to show the Herefords. I will keep them at my place for you' haul them for you., feed em at every event, etc. Gordon them for their momma t be right back.
That is something that has been on my mind since I saw them July 4 weekend. I can just imagine what a steer by a Hereford bull out of one of these cows would do in the auction arena! Or what a hellacious replacement heifer the heifers would make. Come by the barn after you get home from church and eat, and we can knock back a few, burn a couple, and think about this idea.
 
I get there's folks that love the registries, and they do fit in with the industry. But for the little guy, unless you're selling in a well promoted sale, there's not a real good reason to register your cattle. I just don't think it's beneficial if your end game is sell at the barn, or even sell private treaty on C-List, because you can only get so much doing that. Someone isn't going to pay $2K for a solid commercial cow, and honestly, probably won't pay that much for a solid AI heifer even with papers.
I saw several Chi-Angus x Black Simm bred heifers sell for $3k, The owner had a copy of the bull's and cow's papers, and a copy of the papers for the bull they were bred to, plus a record of their DOB, bw, ww, date bred, vaccination and worming records, etc. for each one. That day, it made a $500 to $1000 difference over the top selling black commercial cows and heifers.
 
LOL... It just occurred to me that I should start a Corriente registration organization.

If I paper them with enough stats, and ancestry, and health records it's sure to make them worth a lot of money to someone.
 
@simme - you did it again. I need to hire you to work on my PR. You are VERY good with words.
The "Fullblood" Simmental cattle in the rest of the world are just as mixed up with different breeds as our Purebreds are. We are just more legit and call them Purebreds rather than Fullbloods. It used to be, if you bred using imported semen that was "Fullblood" and you bred to "your fullblood cows", you got registration papers from ASA that said they were Fullblood. Well, they quit that, because those imported "Fullbloods" were not fullbloods. So now, the imported semen or bulls have to have 5 generation of registered Fullbloods before they can be called Fullblood offspring.
A little story:
My husband & I used to raise registered Quarter horses. We had 3 really quality fillies and just couldn't get them sold. Finally, a guy that owned a really nice Western Store bought them for $500 each (now I'm talking back in 1970). We decided to go to a local horse show. Walking around, we spotted 2 of the fillies we sold and it was not the Western Store owner. So, we got chatting with the people and told them we were looking for a few fillies like them, and did they mind telling us how much they had to pay for them. Well, it was like $5000 each.
Hubby was pizzed. He said, "that's it! We're buying some beef cattle. It won't make any difference if our name is Rockefeller or Jones, they are worth so much a pound".
Well, we did buy some commercial cows and immediately got into the registered cattle. Sooooo - we had to build a name for our farm if we wanted to sell for more $$!!
 
Something else that needs to be said...

This idea that crossbred cattle now have "papers" is pretty ludicrous. This entire polluting of the breeds with outside genetics to get color, or anything else for that matter, is highly questionable.
"crossbred cattle now have"?!!....! You never heard of ABBA Golden Certified? Or SimmAngus? Or FlexLim? Balancer?!! These are all registiries for cross breds. Do you find them to be ludicrus? How so?: What is questioning about them? Do you know @CCCowman on here? What is so objectional to you, about the purchaser of a crossbred heifer being able to know who and what its sire and dam are?!!
 
I have been to the local sale barn and they will sometimes say this is a registered bull and here is his papers. That animal will usually sell to a local and bring a little more . If it's not dead old or has injuries. A lot of folks buy registered bulls , keep them for 4-5 years and then sell them . You get get a good buy on an older proven bull sometimes.
@coachg Which sales barn did you send them to or see them in AL that they announced they were registered and gave the papers?
 
I will offer an alternate view. "Papers" are a record of ancestors, not evidence of genetic purity or superiority. The idea that the old breeds are "pure" is just wrong. Cows were not created with papers. A few hundred years ago, similar cattle in an area were accepted into a breed registry. Do you think that those first cattle accepted into the angus or hereford registry did not have any crossbreeding behind them through the ages? They were all angus or hereford for thousands of years even before any written records were kept? I suspect the situation is no different than the people in that area. I suspect there was some visitation and relocation in all those genetics.

If anyone thinks that American simmental, Simangus, beefmasters, brangus, etc are "polluted", they just need to be enlightened. They have "papers" and were developed to meet a need for cattle that excel in an environment. "polluted"? I don't think so. Some of those "pure" angus and polled herefords of the 50's and 60's have probably benefited from "pollution" as well.

Angus association says that everything needed for cattle is in the angus breed. No other genetics needed. Progressive breed associations recommend cross breeding. It gives longevity, heterosis, fertility and such.

Just my opinion.
I'll try to keep this short...

Crossbred cattle can be great and crossbreeding can produce impressive results. And if someone wants to do the work to document their breeding so they can inform people buying their product, more power to them. I documented numbers and breeding decisions to sell my commercial replacement heifers and that was definitely part of the dollars I got when selling them. But claiming they are registered, even if it was something I could have done, is not something I would do. It feels too much like gilding the lily to make more money at the expense of any real value.

Registration was once reserved for cattle of similar genetic origin and type. A registered animal was once a reliable source of future breeding results. Breeds had specific abilities and characteristics and if you chose them for a breeding program you could count on what you got.

Beefmaster are a good example of an incomplete and premature registration, and claims of being a "breed". You can buy a hundred Beefmaster and get a hundred animals that look like they are out of a crossbred herd. Tall, lightly muscled, eared cattle with solid color, or short, plump, white faced cattle with no ear and in a range of red (lately some black), or brindle, roan, brockle face, nothing consistent in terms of color or type. I'm not knocking Beefmaster as performers in the field, but you have to be careful choosing a Beefmaster bull because you don't really know what kind of calves you can expect. Beefmaster had no breed standard for color or type, instead opting for mothering ability and efficiency.

But with consistent cattle, the European breeds, You can pretty much count on what you will be getting just by looking at them and knowing what they produce. This is the strength of registered cattle, to be wells of genetic consistency that people can count on so they can make choices that lead to reliable results.

You can put together a herd of consistent commercial crossbred cows and get good results by careful selection of pureblood bulls. I've done it. But it's harder and you have to really know what you're doing and be willing to live with more mistakes. You can buy a ready made herd of consistent heifers, but as they age out and need to be replaced you would need to be careful with what you are replacing with to maintain consistency. Adding a "registered" crossbred bull into the mix is going to give inconsistent results compared to a bull with genetic consistency.

And consistent calves sell better than a mixed bunch. And isn't that the highest priority for most of us as cattle producers? Producing the best product and getting the most at the point of sale is our affirmation of what we are doing right.

Registering crossbred animals may make money for those doing it, but for buyers paying the extra price they are getting a potential can of worms... and they may pay for it.
 
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I'll try to keep this short...

Crossbred cattle can be great and crossbreeding can produce impressive results. And if someone wants to do the work to document their breeding so they can inform people buying their product, more power to them. I documented numbers and breeding decisions to sell my commercial replacement heifers and that was definitely part of the dollars I got when selling them. But claiming they are registered, even if it was something I could have done, is not something I would do. It feels too much like gilding the lily to make more money at the expense of any real value.

Registration was once reserved for cattle of similar genetic origin and type. A registered animal was once a reliable source of future breeding results. Breeds had specific abilities and characteristics and if you chose them for a breeding program you could count on what you got.

Beefmaster are a good example of an incomplete and premature registration, and claims of being a "breed". You can buy a hundred Beefmaster and get a hundred animals that look like they are out of a crossbred herd. Tall, lightly muscled, eared cattle with solid color, or short, plump, white faced cattle with no ear and in a range of red (lately some black), or brindle, roan, brockle face, nothing consistent in terms of color or type. I'm not knocking Beefmaster as performers in the field, but you have to be careful choosing a Beefmaster bull because you don't really know what kind of calves you can expect. Beefmaster had no breed standard for color or type, instead opting for mothering ability and efficiency.

But with consistent cattle, the European breeds, You can pretty much count on what you will be getting just by looking at them and knowing what they produce. This is the strength of registered cattle, to be wells of genetic consistency that people can count on so they can make choices that lead to reliable results.

You can put together a herd of consistent commercial crossbred cows and get good results by careful selection of pureblood bulls. I've done it. But it's harder and you have to really know what you're doing and be willing to live with more mistakes. You can buy a ready made herd of consistent heifers, but as they age out and need to be replaced you would need to be careful with what you are replacing with to maintain consistency. Adding a "registered" crossbred bull into the mix is going to give inconsistent results compared to a bull with genetic consistency.

And consistent calves sell better than a mixed bunch. And isn't that the highest priority for most of us as cattle producers? Producing the best product and getting the most at the point of sale is our affirmation of what we are doing right.

Registering crossbred animals may make money for those doing it, but for buyers paying the extra price they are getting a potential can of worms... and they may pay for it.


I can't argue with what you said above about creating a registry to register half and half cattle. . To create a credible registry or association., you'd have to establish breed standards for the animal to be included, and use those criteria to approve registration...not just say that a "Charimmental", for example, is half Charolais and half Simmental. But I can't help but feel some of your negative comments and digs, were directed at the cattle that Clay and I have talked about on here. The Chi-angus x black Simms. No where at any time did either of us claim these to be registered cattle, nor does the breeder. The man bought a herd of 30 registered Chi-Angus cows, and a herd of registered black Simm cows. All 6o were homozygous polled and homozygous black. When he bought the ChI-Ang, he eared tagged them 001 - 030. The Simms he tagged 031-060. he created a folder under Documents on his computer, and scanned the cow's papers in to it. And made a manilla folder that he put the actual papers in. He does the same thing for each bull he uses to AI. Most people do this anyhow for their commercial cattle. When say, 030 is bred, he creates another computer file and a manilla folder, for 130 . If 130 is a heifer, he copies the cow's papers into both files, and the bull's papers into both files. He also has a WORD paper with the cow's name and the bull's name,. the date it was born, birth weight, weaning weight, weaning date, and its vaccination, worming and any other medical records. A copy goes in both 130's and 030's files and folders. If it is a heifer that he hasn't sold by 16 mos old, he will breed it, record that date, and put a copy of the bull's papers he bred her to. You are talking just a few minutes each year. When he sells these heifers, he gives the buyer a copy of the sire and dam papers, her record sheet, and if bred, that bull's papers. This may take 5 minutes total to print. And I am sorry, but this DOES make a difference to a buyer of replacement heifers. Next year, 030's heifer calf will be called 230, and will have its own file/foledr as well. Steer calves, he just puts the information paper in 030's file and folder. When 030 ages out, he wil breed her to a bull of the same breed, using sexed semen to get her replacement. If this her tenth calf, it will be tagged 1030, and she will go into the cow herd for her breed. He will never have over 60 cows....30 Sim and 30 Chi-Ang. and any replacements will be a daughter of one of the original 60. It took a lot longer for me to type this, than it would have to print the "papers" on the 60 or so heifers he will sell each year. If having this information on 60 heifers, made them bring just $50 more instead of $500, that would be $3900 more money he makes. Well worth the few minutes it takes to create those records.

I agree with you about the BM bull. He used him the last few years because he was a dang good black one that he picked up for a few hundred dollars. He only breeds a few each year if he hasn't sold them by 16 mos old, and he sold that bull in July to someone who bought his heifers. He said the only time his cattle do not win at a fair, is when a client who buys his heifers, breeds them to a Hereford and shows those black baldies against him His plan is to use Herford bulls (semen) going forward when he has any to breed. Clay and I are talking about buying 8-10 of them next year, and raise them to breed with the Sexed polled Brahma semen we used on those Brown Swiss/Braunvieh cows I got last winter and those two dairy heifers I bought for Zeke. I said I MIGHT, because I am supposed to be retired from the cattle business. Those heifers will be weaned July 2024, bred Nov of 2025, and it would be August 2026 before those 1/2 Brahma calves would be born. And 2028 before I could see what kind of cows they made. If I make it that long I would be 71, and in a lot worse shape than I am now!
 
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I can't argue with what you said above about creating a registry to register half and half cattle. . To create a credible registry or association., youd have to establish breed standards for the animal to be included, and use those criteria to approve registration.,.not just say that a "Charimmental", for example, is half Charolais and half Simmental. But I cant help but feel some of your negative comments and digs, were directed at the cattle that Clayu and I have talked about on here. The Chi-angus x black Simms. No where at any time did either of uis claim these to be registered cattle, nor does the breeder. The man bought a herd of 30 registered Chi-Angus cows, and a herd of registered black Simm cows. All6o were homozygous polled and homozygous black. When he bought the ChI-ANg, he eared tagged them 001 - 030. The Simms he tagged 031-060. he creaatyed a folder under Dopccuments on his computer, and scanned the cow;s papers in to it. And made a manilla folder that he put the actual [papers in. He does the same thing for eachj bull he uses to AI. Most people does this anyhow for their commercial cattle. When say, 030 is bred, he creates another computer file and a manilla folder, for 130 . If 130 is a heifer, he copies the cow's papers into both files, and the bull's papers into both files. He also has a WORD paper with the cows name and the bull's name,. the date it was born, birth weight, weaning weight, weaning date, and its vaccination, worming and any other medical records. a copy goes in both 130's and 030's files and folders. If it is a heifer that he hasn't sold by 16 mos old, he will breed it, record that date, anmd put a copy of the bull's papers he bred her to. You are talking just a few minutes each year. When he sells these heifers, he gives the buyer a copy of the sire and dam papers, her record sheet, and if bred, that bull's papers. This may take 5 minutes total to print. And I am sorry, but this DOES make a difference to a buyer of replacement heifers. Next year, 030's heifer calf will be called 230, and will have its file/foler as well. Steer calves, he just puts the information paper in 030's file and folder. WHen 030 ages out, he wil breed her to a bull of the same breed, using sexed semen to get her replacement. If this her tenth calf, it will be tagged 1030, and she will go into the 30 cow herd for her breed. He will never have over 60 cows....30 Sim and 30 Chi-Ang. and any replacements will be a daughter of one of the original 60. It took a lot longer for me to type this, than it would have to print the "{apers" on the 30 or so heifers he will sell each year. If having this information on 30 heifers, made them bring just $50 more instead of $5600, thaty would be $1500 more money he makes. Well worth the few minutes it takes to create those records.

I agree with you about the BM bull. He used him the last few years because he was a dang good black one that he picked up for a few hundred dollars. He only breeds a few each year if he hasn;t sold them by 16 mos old, and he sold that bull in July to someone who bought his heifers. He said the only time his cattle do not win at a fair, is when a client who buys his heifers, breeds them to a Hereford and shows those black baldies against him His plan is to use Herford bulls (semen) going forward when he has any to breed. Clay and I are talking about buying 8-10 of them next year, and raise them to breed with the Sexed polled Brahma semen we used on those Brown Swiss/Braunvieh cows I got last winter and those two dairy heifers I bought for Zeke. I said I MIGHT, because I am supposed to be retired from the cattle business. Those heifers will be weaned July 2024, bred Nov of 2025, and it would be August 2026 before those 1/2 Brahma calves would be born. And 2008 before I could see what kind of cows they made. If I make it that long I would be 71, and in a lot worse shape than I am now!
No personal digs intended. Just an "in general" opinion on the practice of registering crossbred cattle regardless of percentage, color, or breed.

And thanks for the polite response.
 
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