Pharo cattle company

[elkwc]

after 100 years of linebreeding for consistency, I'd expect the rest of them to be similar if they paid any attention to udders.. After just 30 years I have ZERO cows with udders like that, and trust me we sure had a lot to begin with.
This is the udder I go for.. And this is also the cow I mentioned above that just chews cud a lot more.. Little baby peeking there is now a 12 year old and a really nice cow
View attachment 24365
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On cow size, I went from a significant number of 16-1800 lb cows that ATE LIKE HECK to mostly 1400 lb cows with no change in weaning weights and the cows ate considerably less, I don't want to go much below a 1200 lb mature weight though, and I'm also not chasing weaning weights over about 650 lbs.. I found the the vast majority of years you get about an extra $20-30 for 100 lbs of extra weight when you go over 600 lbs, and the cow that makes that much bigger calf is going to be eating that much more for sure.. If you have BLM, rented pasture by the head, or whatever where the forage quantity eaten by each animal isn't calculated, well, that would change how you select as well, but I found the high 5wt - low 6wt calves sell well here

My issue is first what was the purpose of posting that video? Also I don't agree with posting his name and phone number. Bet he never voiced any concerns with the breeder. If I have an issue I take it up with the person. He could of posted the picture of the cow without listing her breeder. Being he only showed one cow that leads to think she was likely the only one. It was real obvious what it was despite his denials. We have had several Limmi's with severe docility issues. I guess I should post a video of a Limmi heifer sired by a well bred Limmi hitting the fence and say that being the breed is over a 100 years old and still has this issue no Limmi is docile. Instead I'm like all of our neighbors they will likely never set foot in our pastures again but haven't posted any videos on a forum.
No size or weight is best for every operation. We each have to find what works best for us. Our low quality forages requires a high volume cow in order for her to consume enough to maintain herself. We have found a 1,400-1,500 lb cow does best for us. In the current drought the smaller lighter cows are falling out. Our terrain is rough so a toad can't utilize our forages either. We desire a cow in the 5.75-6.25 frame range. This works in our environment and market. If you have the growth and need too you can wean your calves earlier and still wean a 550 lb calf. With the drought we weaned our fall calves last spring at between 5-6 months. Every acre we graze is owned and paid for. No BLM.

 

[rocfarm]

That is the fact if selling at a barn in this area. You take a beating on the smaller framed cattle. I like how the PB promoting call them moderate framed maternal cattle. The barn managers and buyers call them small framed low growth cattle.

You can't sell someone they don't want. Small framed cattle took a beating at the last few auctions I was at as well. Frame score 5 calves seems to be a must in central Texas.

 

[rocfarm]

I found ways to do it with no technology.. I had one cow and she was the last to come to the feed bunk, first to leave and go lay down to chew cud, raised great calves
One thing I noticed with her is she chewed every mouthful of cud a lot longer than the others, usually they seemed to chew it about 40 times, she'd chew it 60-65 times, so right there she's mechanically breaking down the food into finer pieces.. You can also look at the manure and see how much rough stuff is in it. It seems to be a trait passed down to her daughters too
I'm sure you could get scientific with just that analysis too

Wow. Never thought about analyzing manure pests of cattle on the same feed to see which cow was more feed efficien. Gonna think on that one…

 

[elkwc]

That's where I'm at, it seems like that 1400 - 1500 range at their heaviest point is where most of our cows will fall and seems to be the best for us. I'd love to make it work with 1200 lb but the ones that do are the exception.
I've say it often, and people think I'm crazy, but I think heavy reliance on EPD's and AI are the worst things that have happened to the cow calf producers.
They are both useful tools, but when used as sole means of selection it's disastrous. EPD's are meant for a comparison, yet you can't do that on a level plain because too many factors come into play between outfits management practices and locations,
as well as constantly recalibrating them.
Then AI is great in certain situations, but now it's to the point we don't have cattle breeding programs anymore, it's just cattle multipliers. Almost every registered outfit has a similar sampling of the latest and greatest bulls of the month. Whether they fit what is truly needed or not, oh well, it's just marketing from the Semen companies, and name recognized prefix outfits, in the same category of the marketing of Pharo, Ohlde, or any other.
I've had good quality AI sired black and BWF calves by the contemporary Angus bulls at the times and been just as disappointed at sale time as when I had calves by walking herd bulls. That extra growth and premium promised from those bulls is kinda elusive. The big thing is they have moderated till they are no longer moderate and it's harder to add the frame using even outliers within the breeds as they tend to skew back towards the center.
There are a few more AI options with Angus, the Sydgen cattle seem to have some decent frame. I'm going to date my AI bull knowledge, the only frame 7 Angus bull I know of is Sydgen CC&7. I think I they have a few 6 frames too though.
The breed direction of Herefords just make me shake my head in disbelief.
They could have made serious inroads back into the market share, with the missteps of Angus direction, but they just seem to be promoting show cattle that are basically squatty little toads.
SHF Ribeye is the only frame 7 Hereford I know of, and like the Angus thats going back several years ago.
Around here anything under 5.5 frame is as low as you want to go definitely nothing under 5 or it's gonna be docked.

Again your views and experiences are similar to ours. 5.5 frame is the lowest you want to go here and using sires sired by AI sires we have dipped below on some of ours. Making an determined effort to increase it. It is easier to reduce frame size than increase it. The progeny of our home raised sires continually out perform the progeny of sires sired by AI sires. There is now less diversity in genetics due to AIing. Like you stated most PB breeders that AI usually use the same flavor of the year sires. And this has now reached the point even the cows are very similar in genetics. We started AIing some in 21 for a few reasons. I have tried too find sires that more closely fit my criteria. To this point I think only one of the AI sires I've bought semen on is in a major semen company catalog. When I find an Angus or Hereford sire with enough frame their semen is usually higher.

 

[rocfarm]

after 100 years of linebreeding for consistency, I'd expect the rest of them to be similar if they paid any attention to udders.. After just 30 years I have ZERO cows with udders like that, and trust me we sure had a lot to begin with.
This is the udder I go for.. And this is also the cow I mentioned above that just chews cud a lot more.. Little baby peeking there is now a 12 year old and a really nice cow
View attachment 24365
View attachment 24366


On cow size, I went from a significant number of 16-1800 lb cows that ATE LIKE HECK to mostly 1400 lb cows with no change in weaning weights and the cows ate considerably less, I don't want to go much below a 1200 lb mature weight though, and I'm also not chasing weaning weights over about 650 lbs.. I found the the vast majority of years you get about an extra $20-30 for 100 lbs of extra weight when you go over 600 lbs, and the cow that makes that much bigger calf is going to be eating that much more for sure.. If you have BLM, rented pasture by the head, or whatever where the forage quantity eaten by each animal isn't calculated, well, that would change how you select as well, but I found the high 5wt - low 6wt calves sell well here

Up north I'd think you have to be over 1200lbs to survive the winter. Down here more than 1400 and they can't really cope with the heat.
Wouldn't Pharo cattle die up there during a bad storm?

 

[elkwc]

How would you select "efficient" commercial cows using "modern technology".?

By using efficiency tested sires and genetics. I was always taught there is no better time too cull a herd than in a drought. Those genetics that are less efficient stick out. Those that are compatible with your environment will maintain condition on the same available feed the others struggle on.

 

[elkwc]

Help me understand - -

why does the feed consumption math based on body wt. not work?

Because research has shown size and weight are poor indicators of efficiency. Just like in humans I know small people that eat way more than I do. Also on our forages a small low volume cow doesn't do well.
If a person wants smaller cows that do well on poor forage then raise half Corriente cows. They will raise a growthier calf than the small framed cows being discussed.

 

[rocfarm]

If I wanted to make money with a grade herd of efficient 1300# BA cows, I would also own some terminal herd sires to make feedlot calves. Here - - that would mean big black growthy Simi or Limi bulls. I would not use grass fed English bulls on them to make feedlot cattle, because I have profit goals.

If I needed to continue to produce bred heifers, I would sort off and sync some top females for AI. I would not use terminal bulls to produce replacements, because I have profit goals.

I am continually amazed on how many posters here, who are not able to share any measurable goals, slam various breeds and breeders. We need to do better.

One of my goals is to clear U$S 100 per pasture acre in the upper mid-west. Do you have any tips towards exceeding this goal?

Nope. Couldn't do that well where I'm at. 25$ an acre seems hard…

 

[faster horses]

Not sure I should add my 2 cents here.
We raised straight bred black Angus replacement heifers and selected bulls to make good females. We considered the steer calves to be a by-product.
I guess we were too old or too tired to figure out much different than the KISS system.
We sold our steer calves to an order buyer and he always came back to buy more.

 

[gcreekrch]

Not sure I should add my 2 cents here.
We raised straight bred black Angus replacement heifers and selected bulls to make good females. We considered the steer calves to be a by-product.
I guess we were too old or too tired to figure out much different than the KISS system.
We sold our steer calves to an order buyer and he always came back to buy more.

There is a school available that teaches people to think how cheat a cow (and themselves eventually) out of a living. Raise cattle that fit your country and the market, breed for replacements and your steers will be just as good as the heifers, put up your hay and feed your cows. It is actually not complicated until (experts) with nothing invested themselves start to coach how to ranch…

 

[Nesikep]

Up north I'd think you have to be over 1200lbs to survive the winter. Down here more than 1400 and they can't really cope with the heat.
Wouldn't Pharo cattle die up there during a bad storm?

we aren't THAT cold compared to other places (like Gcreek or Hoser).. we pretty much had the coldest we've seen in 30 years 2 weeks ago and it was -27C -17F that lasted a couple days.. Here's one of my bred heifers, probably about 1000 lbs, she's totally undisturbed by it, she's got some fat, a good coat of fur, and most importantly a full belly to keep the heaters working

 

[rocfarm]

She looks good. Coldest my place usually gets is 17F. But then it's liable to be 70F the next day. And we've got green grass and clover at times during wetter winters. Don't know if I envy you Canadian guys. Our southern cattle might lose on size and grade, but they seem to be a bit less maintenance. Some of my girls don't even have much of a winter coat…

 

[dave_shelby]

Steve I'm not sure I understand your point but I am interested in all of these concepts. Fairly new to this too, and its hard to sort out things w so many strongly held beliefs.

I have cow frames sizes between 4.5-6 and about 1050 to 1250 pounds, except for some south poll crosses. They have all been culled based on health and failing to breed back. Almost all calves are graded LM2 and a few 1s both close in price. My conclusion here is to go with the smaller cows. Is that incorrect?

The most critical factor here is heat and fescue tolerance and while I know it has nothing to do with size, breed does. I have bought some red angus and am encouraged by what I have seen to date and am also trying some south poll crosses. I would breed up a few Corrientes if I could find any.

Why does increased size help in drought?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Very good post and a reflection of what we have seen and experienced. It is a balancing act and even more so today. We have already lost frame size and weight due to the current popular AI genetics. We are currently trying to get our cows back in that 1,400-1,500 lb range. And the majority in the 5.75-6.25 frame range. Trying to find a polled Hereford a 6.0 frame or above is hard. Again no one size, type or breed works best for everyone

I know you have dabbed in Simmies. Try OMF Epic 3317371 or MR SR 71 Right Now #3325668. Both bulls are extremely great CE with super growth. I am more impressed with the Epic as calves than the Right Now - but both make superb yearling females. (looking at breeding stock). Both great spread bulls.

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[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

"I've say it often, and people think I'm crazy, but I think heavy reliance on EPD's and AI are the worst things that have happened to the cow calf producers."
You are absolutely correct. Breeders have been chasing numbers instead of LOOKING at their cattle. Ending up with poor feet and structure and losing muscling. Marbling trait is antagonistic to muscling. So chase that marbling and you lose muscling.
Also, something not touched in this post of small cows. Each and every cow and calf has to be looked at, calved out, doctored, labor, labor, labor. When you vaccinate, very few are based on weight, so cost is equal for an 800# cow or a 1600# cow.
Your time is worth something. More cows = more labor.
In my operation, I have to balance being up to date and producing the quality my herd is known for. Some of the "new" bulls are too small framed. Luckily, I have some cows that are too big, so they balance out nicely.
It is much easier to get them small than to get them big. For many years I was told by Extension people that my cows were too big (frame 7-9). I told them, when my buyers quit showing up with measuring tapes to see if they were big enough framed for them, I could get them short in a heartbeat. The time finally came that the tallest in the ring wasn't important to the judges. My goal was to cut off their legs and keep the volume. I accomplished that in just a couple of years. My weight did not change much, but my cattle are 5-6.5 frame. Did not lose much in WW. I breed each and every cow with a breeding female in mind. If I get a great bull, wonderful. But, I do not breed for any males. Girls are my money makers.
Yes, I breed for "pretty" offspring for the showring, but, my main goal is to make a cow. My buyers appreciate what they have after a show career. I do use EPD's - but they are a TOOL, not God's gift to the beef industry.

 

[elkwc]

Steve I'm not sure I understand your point but I am interested in all of these concepts. Fairly new to this too, and its hard to sort out things w so many strongly held beliefs.

I have cow frames sizes between 4.5-6 and about 1050 to 1250 pounds, except for some south poll crosses. They have all been culled based on health and failing to breed back. Almost all calves are graded LM2 and a few 1s both close in price. My conclusion here is to go with the smaller cows. Is that incorrect?

The most critical factor here is heat and fescue tolerance and while I know it has nothing to do with size, breed does. I have bought some red angus and am encouraged by what I have seen to date and am also trying some south poll crosses. I would breed up a few Corrientes if I could find any.

Why does increased size help in drought?

Steve I'm not sure I understand your point but I am interested in all of these concepts. Fairly new to this too, and its hard to sort out things w so many strongly held beliefs.

I have cow frames sizes between 4.5-6 and about 1050 to 1250 pounds, except for some south poll crosses. They have all been culled based on health and failing to breed back. Almost all calves are graded LM2 and a few 1s both close in price. My conclusion here is to go with the smaller cows. Is that incorrect?

The most critical factor here is heat and fescue tolerance and while I know it has nothing to do with size, breed does. I have bought some red angus and am encouraged by what I have seen to date and am also trying some south poll crosses. I would breed up a few Corrientes if I could find any.

Why does increased size help in drought?

Dave I'm not Steve but will try to explain why an average size cow works best in our environment. A recent study found that the average cow size of most breeds including Angus and Herefords was around 1,400 lbs. I also want to state I have lived and been involved with cows in 3 different environments and each required a different type. In arid NM on short grass we ran a 1,050-1,200 lb cow. In SW KS on a mix of grass types we ran a cow with a little more size and weight. Where we are now and in our management our goal is a 1,400-1,500 lb cow. The grass in longer varieties but most low nutrient and it requires more volume to consume enough to maintain condition. In NM our cows were what I call a low volume cow. The grass was high in nutrients so takes less. We stockpile grass even during drought years unlike many who graze short and then feed hay everyday. Hay is high and hard to get. Our terrain here is rough so a short toad can't utilize the grass. Our market desires around a 6.0 frame. Our environment requires a deep bodied cow with good spring of rib to get the volume needed for a cow to maintain herself. When we get the volume needed regardless of frame size we have a cow that will weigh close to 1,400 lb. Then we add a little frame for our terrain and market. We add little weight. This time of year especially everytime we feed I spend time observing the cows and changes in condition. Thursday where we opened a new pasture over a week ago I was checking some I have noticed changes in. There is 20 head. 18 of them are doing good and either maintaining or gaining conditions. . One small cow is losing. Will either sell her or move her. She is full but can't consume the needed nutrients without extra inputs. The other cows are doing great. Remember what works for one producer won't work everywhere. I never tell another breeder what size, type or breed he should raise. We each has to find what works for us. Many assume a small cow will always do better on less. We have found that isn't always true. Many factors involved. We work with our vets and nutritionists along with the results we see to make our decisions.

 

[elkwc]

You can't sell someone they don't want. Small framed cattle took a beating at the last few auctions I was at as well. Frame score 5 calves seems to be a must in central Texas.

Rocfarm the environment dictates many things including frame size and weight. We each have to find the best balance for our operation and what will return the most dollars per acre.!

 

[dave_shelby]

Elkwc I appreciate detailed explanation. I have a followup. Frame score is based on height correct? But that isn't gut capacity. (BTW is that also termed "spring of rib" in fancy cattleman sales talk?) And also would the ratio of gut capacity to animal weight be more meaningful? I need to take a picture of one of my favorites an old Hereford who is low and wide and has a nice udder. I've thought about flushing her - she is at least 15 -because I've seen few like her.

I've always struggled to put together what factors make the perfect cow. Some pefect looking cows dont breed back. Then, I have old ugly 33 who has a roach back and small gut and doesn't do all that well with fescue but breeds back albeit as a fall calver and raises a decent calf. It ain't all looks.

 

[Allenw]

"I've say it often, and people think I'm crazy, but I think heavy reliance on EPD's and AI are the worst things that have happened to the cow calf producers."
You are absolutely correct. Breeders have been chasing numbers instead of LOOKING at their cattle. Ending up with poor feet and structure and losing muscling. Marbling trait is antagonistic to muscling. So chase that marbling and you lose muscling.
Also, something not touched in this post of small cows. Each and every cow and calf has to be looked at, calved out, doctored, labor, labor, labor. When you vaccinate, very few are based on weight, so cost is equal for an 800# cow or a 1600# cow.
Your time is worth something. More cows = more labor.
In my operation, I have to balance being up to date and producing the quality my herd is known for. Some of the "new" bulls are too small framed. Luckily, I have some cows that are too big, so they balance out nicely.
It is much easier to get them small than to get them big. For many years I was told by Extension people that my cows were too big (frame 7-9). I told them, when my buyers quit showing up with measuring tapes to see if they were big enough framed for them, I could get them short in a heartbeat. The time finally came that the tallest in the ring wasn't important to the judges. My goal was to cut off their legs and keep the volume. I accomplished that in just a couple of years. My weight did not change much, but my cattle are 5-6.5 frame. Did not lose much in WW. I breed each and every cow with a breeding female in mind. If I get a great bull, wonderful. But, I do not breed for any males. Girls are my money makers.
Yes, I breed for "pretty" offspring for the showring, but, my main goal is to make a cow. My buyers appreciate what they have after a show career. I do use EPD's - but they are a TOOL, not God's gift to the beef industry.

Jeanne very well put.

The bare truth is a lot of so called breeders are actually just multipliers buying from the big names and riding along which ever way the wind takes them.

 

[elkwc]

I know you have dabbed in Simmies. Try OMF Epic 3317371 or MR SR 71 Right Now #3325668. Both bulls are extremely great CE with super growth. I am more impressed with the Epic as calves than the Right Now - but both make superb yearling females. (looking at breeding stock). Both great spread bulls.

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Thanks for the suggestions. I will look them up and try a few straws.