My New SAV Bull

[CattleMan1920]

Haven't seen them in the flesh, but I have actual progeny that I can put my hand on that is DNA proven, and I would venture to say that they are very nice animals indeed.

Watched both bulls sell and have progeny from both on the place that I purchased as a experiment. To this point there is not enough separation to claim either superior. Wait until some daughters breed and calve then maybe we'll know something. Both bulls have a heck of a lot to prove before I have any interest in using their genetics on large groups of cows. Nice looking animals don't pay any bills if they don't breed timely and replicate a marketable product. So it's too early to claim anything at this point other than liking the way calves and yearlings look.

I don't suppose you would share AAA #'s on those progeny would you?

Also, if seed stock sales across the country only relied on bulls that had 2k DNA proven progeny or more and were over 10 years old or so, the gene pool would be pretty limited.

Some choose to take the path less traveled, some want a very predictable experience with no risks. Someone at some point had to take a risk on Hoover Dam, he didn't just start out with thousands of progeny on the ground.

I'll be using my President son in September, from the looks of him so far, he won't disappoint me.

I'm not passing judgement on your cattle judging skills, but from your experience, why did President garner higher bids than Rainfall, was it just for no reason at all, or was their something different about him? Also why wasn't America sired by Rainfall instead of President, or by Raindance? SAV chose President for a reason unbeknownst to us plebeians.

 

[Hogtiming]

Branded If America didn't bring the money he did would you have even noticed him? Wasn't the best bull in the sale in my opinion. Just has the better epds

 

[jehosofat]

Nothing against Young or his bull, but $5k for a President bull would have made all the red flags go up for me. Actual President sons are not cheap, and I would have wondered why I was getting such a deal. Just my opinion.

So you assume the seller knew that he was selling a bull with wrong parentage? I do not get your point to accuse folks whom you generally worship.

Eb, I don't worship SAV, I use their genetics, get it straight. I also have other genetics going on out here, which I know you are aware of if you read my posts carefully.

I'm not saying that Young was tricked. I personally think Young's story doesn't add up. That what I'm ACTUALLY saying.

So, you're calling bullsheit on his story?

 

[CattleMan1920]

So you assume the seller knew that he was selling a bull with wrong parentage? I do not get your point to accuse folks whom you generally worship.

Eb, I don't worship SAV, I use their genetics, get it straight. I also have other genetics going on out here, which I know you are aware of if you read my posts carefully.

I'm not saying that Young was tricked. I personally think Young's story doesn't add up. That what I'm ACTUALLY saying.

So, you're calling bullsheit on his story?

It sounds like there was definitely a miscommunication on someone's part.

 

[CreekAngus]

Branded: your making yourself sound dumb on this one, blaming Young. Go to the very first post, he tells us he bought SAV President #### and lists the registration number. He didn't have his head up his butt or thinking he got something he don't. Kelly bought the bull for him and for all Young and anyone knows he got a President son. You're making this sound like Kelly knew he was ripping off Young or it's Young's fault because he's naive (not saying the guy is naive). Your insinuating Kelly defrauded Young and bilked the AAA. A mistake happened and you make no sense on this one. By the way, the AAA will no longer allow you to pull up this bulls registration.

 

[jscunn]

Eb, I don't worship SAV, I use their genetics, get it straight. I also have other genetics going on out here, which I know you are aware of if you read my posts carefully.

I'm not saying that Young was tricked. I personally think Young's story doesn't add up. That what I'm ACTUALLY saying.

So, you're calling bullsheit on his story?

It sounds like there was definitely a miscommunication on someone's part.

So who caused the "miscommunication" Kelly Schaff, or the people that do the catalog?
Have you ever seen either President or Rainfall in person?
What makes Presidents so much more valuable than Rainfalls?
Last one what is a President son worth from a outfit without a national reputation? ie Your place versus SAV?

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded: your making yourself sound dumb on this one, blaming Young. Go to the very first post, he tells us he bought SAV President #### and lists the registration number. He didn't have his head up his butt or thinking he got something he don't. Kelly bought the bull for him and for all Young and anyone knows he got a President son. You're making this sound like Kelly knew he was ripping off Young or it's Young's fault because he's naive (not saying the guy is naive). Your insinuating Kelly defrauded Young and bilked the AAA. A mistake happened and you make no sense on this one. By the way, the AAA will no longer allow you to pull up this bulls registration.

Creek you are putting words in my mouth. Trying to imply that I'm calling out SAV. Which I'm not. I'm just asking questions.

Let me make this absolutely clear, had Branded sold someone a bull which on the AAA registration said SAV President 6847 was the sire, and then later when tested it was found to not be the case. I would be SKEWERED! Roasted on a spit! There would be no mercy.

Let's assume Young had not tested the bull, used him for two seasons; registered all the progeny, sold them all to buyers and the those buyers registered those progeny, which would have been believed to be grandchildren of President, and tested their animals, and SURPRISE! Can you say cluster.f.ck? Can you imagine what one wrong registration could do to screw up his newly established business? You might be forgiving, but I'm pretty sure his clients would not be.

You call me dumb, but if you think that scenario is ok, then you must be ok with fast and loose when it comes to your registered business. I would never take a chance on parentage, especially not in this day and age.

 

[CreekAngus]

Branded: your making yourself sound dumb on this one, blaming Young. Go to the very first post, he tells us he bought SAV President #### and lists the registration number. He didn't have his head up his butt or thinking he got something he don't. Kelly bought the bull for him and for all Young and anyone knows he got a President son. You're making this sound like Kelly knew he was ripping off Young or it's Young's fault because he's naive (not saying the guy is naive). Your insinuating Kelly defrauded Young and bilked the AAA. A mistake happened and you make no sense on this one. By the way, the AAA will no longer allow you to pull up this bulls registration.

Creek you are putting words in my mouth. Trying to imply that I'm calling out SAV. Which I'm not. I'm just asking questions.

Let me make this absolutely clear, had Branded sold someone a bull which on the AAA registration said SAV President 6847 was the sire, and then later when tested it was found to not be the case. I would be SKEWERED! Roasted on a spit! There would be no mercy.

Let's assume Young had not tested the bull, used him for two seasons; registered all the progeny, sold them all to buyers and the those buyers registered those progeny, which would have been believed to be grandchildren of President, and tested their animals, and SURPRISE! Can you say cluster.f.ck? Can you imagine what one wrong registration could do to screw up his newly established business? You might be forgiving, but I'm pretty sure his clients would not be.

You call me dumb, but if you think that scenario is ok, then you must be ok with fast and loose when it comes to your registered business. I would never take a chance on parentage, especially not in this day and age.

I agree with you so the issue isn't Young being naive it's Kelly selling him bogus genetics.....I'm not blaming SAV, they screwed up, but you're the on claiming Young is naive and should have known his $5,000 bull was who he was supposed to be...that's dumb. I don't care who I buy an animal from I have to take their word, unless dna has been done. But SAV isn't dna'ing and that appears to now be an issue.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Actually, for all that matters... a "President son" sold for 5k on SAV sale. That's what it was listed as, that is what it sold for. So technically, yes... (gasp!) a President son sold for $5k.

Nobody was duped. Every bidder had an opportunity to bid on him just like all the real president sons.

This was an AUCTION not a private treaty.

SAV did not set out to dupe anyone. They should though, hold themselves to a better standard when selling animals. Whether they sell a million dollar bull or not, parentage should be done. I also prefer genomics. But if I could sell high dollar bulls based off of reputation alone, I can't say for sure that I'd do it either (genomics).

 

[Bright Raven]

Actually, for all that matters... a "President son" sold for 5k on SAV sale. That's what it was listed as, that is what it sold for. So technically, yes... (gasp!) a President son sold for $5k.

Nobody was duped. Every bidder had an opportunity to bid on him just like all the real president sons.

This was an AUCTION not a private treaty.

SAV did not set out to dupe anyone. They should though, hold themselves to a better standard when selling animals. Whether they sell a million dollar bull or not, parentage should be done. I also prefer genomics. But if I could sell high dollar bulls based off of reputation alone, I can't say for sure that I'd do it either (genomics).

IMO price/value is not an issue.

As Brook stated in his last post above, it doesn't matter whether you got a better bull or a worse bull. The issue is fundamental- you did not get the merchandise that was advertised. That is wrong in any retail or wholesale environment. It is a tremendous issue especially in cattle breeding because the mislabeling is multiplied and the problem snowballs.

I am an extremely small operation. Since I am 100 % AI, as long as the semen in the straw is not mislabeled or bogus, I know the bonafide parentage of each calf. I tell every potential buyer that. I encourage them to DNA test and I tell them they will get their money back and the cost of their time if the animal is not as advertised.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Actually, for all that matters... a "President son" sold for 5k on SAV sale. That's what it was listed as, that is what it sold for. So technically, yes... (gasp!) a President son sold for $5k.

Nobody was duped. Every bidder had an opportunity to bid on him just like all the real president sons.

This was an AUCTION not a private treaty.

SAV did not set out to dupe anyone. They should though, hold themselves to a better standard when selling animals. Whether they sell a million dollar bull or not, parentage should be done. I also prefer genomics. But if I could sell high dollar bulls based off of reputation alone, I can't say for sure that I'd do it either (genomics).

IMO price/value is not an issue.

As Brook stated in his last post above, it doesn't matter whether you got a better bull or a worse bull. The issue is fundamental- you did not get the merchandise that was advertised. That is wrong in any retail or wholesale environment. It is a tremendous issue especially in cattle breeding because the mislabeling is multiplied and the problem snowballs.

I am an extremely small operation. Since I am 100 % AI, as long as the semen in the straw is not mislabeled or bogus, I know the bonafide parentage of each calf. I tell every potential buyer that. I encourage them to DNA test and I tell them they will get their money back and the cost of their time if the animal is not as advertised.

Ron your not DNA testing your animals? And if so why?

 

[NEFarmwife]

Actually, for all that matters... a "President son" sold for 5k on SAV sale. That's what it was listed as, that is what it sold for. So technically, yes... (gasp!) a President son sold for $5k.

Nobody was duped. Every bidder had an opportunity to bid on him just like all the real president sons.

This was an AUCTION not a private treaty.

SAV did not set out to dupe anyone. They should though, hold themselves to a better standard when selling animals. Whether they sell a million dollar bull or not, parentage should be done. I also prefer genomics. But if I could sell high dollar bulls based off of reputation alone, I can't say for sure that I'd do it either (genomics).

IMO price/value is not an issue.

As Brook stated in his last post above, it doesn't matter whether you got a better bull or a worse bull. The issue is fundamental- you did not get the merchandise that was advertised. That is wrong in any retail or wholesale environment. It is a tremendous issue especially in cattle breeding because the mislabeling is multiplied and the problem snowballs.

I am an extremely small operation. Since I am 100 % AI, as long as the semen in the straw is not mislabeled or bogus, I know the bonafide parentage of each calf. I tell every potential buyer that. I encourage them to DNA test and I tell them they will get their money back and the cost of their time if the animal is not as advertised.

Actually, it is an issue because BH stated "thing against Young or his bull, but $5k for a President bull would have made all the red flags go up for me. Actual President sons are not cheap, and I would have wondered why I was getting such a deal. Just my opinion."

This is what I'm responding to, as a whole.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Actually, for all that matters... a "President son" sold for 5k on SAV sale. That's what it was listed as, that is what it sold for. So technically, yes... (gasp!) a President son sold for $5k.

Nobody was duped. Every bidder had an opportunity to bid on him just like all the real president sons.

This was an AUCTION not a private treaty.

SAV did not set out to dupe anyone. They should though, hold themselves to a better standard when selling animals. Whether they sell a million dollar bull or not, parentage should be done. I also prefer genomics. But if I could sell high dollar bulls based off of reputation alone, I can't say for sure that I'd do it either (genomics).

IMO price/value is not an issue.

As Brook stated in his last post above, it doesn't matter whether you got a better bull or a worse bull. The issue is fundamental- you did not get the merchandise that was advertised. That is wrong in any retail or wholesale environment. It is a tremendous issue especially in cattle breeding because the mislabeling is multiplied and the problem snowballs.

I am an extremely small operation. Since I am 100 % AI, as long as the semen in the straw is not mislabeled or bogus, I know the bonafide parentage of each calf. I tell every potential buyer that. I encourage them to DNA test and I tell them they will get their money back and the cost of their time if the animal is not as advertised.

Actually, it is an issue because BH stated "thing against Young or his bull, but $5k for a President bull would have made all the red flags go up for me. Actual President sons are not cheap, and I would have wondered why I was getting such a deal. Just my opinion."

This is what I'm responding to, as a whole.

IMO, BH is blatantly stating that SAV set out to mislead Young.

 

[Bright Raven]

Actually, for all that matters... a "President son" sold for 5k on SAV sale. That's what it was listed as, that is what it sold for. So technically, yes... (gasp!) a President son sold for $5k.

Nobody was duped. Every bidder had an opportunity to bid on him just like all the real president sons.

This was an AUCTION not a private treaty.

SAV did not set out to dupe anyone. They should though, hold themselves to a better standard when selling animals. Whether they sell a million dollar bull or not, parentage should be done. I also prefer genomics. But if I could sell high dollar bulls based off of reputation alone, I can't say for sure that I'd do it either (genomics).

IMO price/value is not an issue.

As Brook stated in his last post above, it doesn't matter whether you got a better bull or a worse bull. The issue is fundamental- you did not get the merchandise that was advertised. That is wrong in any retail or wholesale environment. It is a tremendous issue especially in cattle breeding because the mislabeling is multiplied and the problem snowballs.

I am an extremely small operation. Since I am 100 % AI, as long as the semen in the straw is not mislabeled or bogus, I know the bonafide parentage of each calf. I tell every potential buyer that. I encourage them to DNA test and I tell them they will get their money back and the cost of their time if the animal is not as advertised.

Ron your not DNA testing your animals? And if so why?

I do not unless there is a specific need. I am very careful with handling semen. There is no opportunity for a cow to be bred by a bull - there is no bull. Just cows and calves. During breeding season, my cows don't even have fenceline access to a bull.

 

[Bright Raven]

IMO price/value is not an issue.

As Brook stated in his last post above, it doesn't matter whether you got a better bull or a worse bull. The issue is fundamental- you did not get the merchandise that was advertised. That is wrong in any retail or wholesale environment. It is a tremendous issue especially in cattle breeding because the mislabeling is multiplied and the problem snowballs.

I am an extremely small operation. Since I am 100 % AI, as long as the semen in the straw is not mislabeled or bogus, I know the bonafide parentage of each calf. I tell every potential buyer that. I encourage them to DNA test and I tell them they will get their money back and the cost of their time if the animal is not as advertised.

Actually, it is an issue because BH stated "thing against Young or his bull, but $5k for a President bull would have made all the red flags go up for me. Actual President sons are not cheap, and I would have wondered why I was getting such a deal. Just my opinion."

This is what I'm responding to, as a whole.

IMO, BH is blatantly stating that SAV set out to mislead Young.

I am addressing the issue broadly. Only speaking to the issue of mislabeling an item that is being sold. I don't think getting into the culpability of the individuals involved is wise.

 

[True Grit Farms]

The more DNA collected the better for Simmental EPD'S. I sure wouldn't want to infect someone's herd because of a bull that I sold them. BVD testing is a big deal to me, and just because you vaccinate against it doesn't mean 100% you don't have it.
http://www.absglobal.com/us/beef/genetic-defect-testing/

 

[Bright Raven]

The more DNA collected the better for Simmental EPD'S. I sure wouldn't want to infect someone's herd because of a bull that I sold them. BVD testing is a big deal to me, and just because you vaccinate against it doesn't mean 100% you don't have it.
http://www.absglobal.com/us/beef/genetic-defect-testing/

DNA testing for EPDs is something I would like to start. I was referring only to DNA testing for parentage above.

I do not take blood samples for antibodies. Do you test everything you sell for BVD?

 

[Ebenezer]

Seeing a name on a straw is not insurance. The worst off type cattle we ever got was from a national semen company and a highly promoted Angus bull. Was a "cow maker" with a lot of proof and no calving issues in the catalog and all sales promotions. Calves came brown, large and fine boned. Worst set of calves we probably had from AI as a whole. Chunked out the semen and sold all the calves as culls.

 

[Bright Raven]

Seeing a name on a straw is not insurance. The worst off type cattle we ever got was from a national semen company and a highly promoted Angus bull. Was a "cow maker" with a lot of proof and no calving issues in the catalog and all sales promotions. Calves came brown, large and fine boned. Worst set of calves we probably had from AI as a whole. Chunked out the semen and sold all the calves as culls.

Correct. It could be either mislabeled or simply bogus. But looking at the label is about all you can do unless you send a straw in for testing. However, today the bigger semen companies have elaborate protocols to address mislabeling and mishandling.

 

[jscunn]

I personally think the guy averaging $14000 per bull at his sale should pick up the expense of parentage testing his sale bulls before the sale. I know he is scared to do 50K on them but parentage just eliminates his liability from things like this happening. Especially since he or his employees are not there to watch the donors breed, the recips to calve, the calves to grow at the cooperator herds.