New Bull-EPD Questions

[ArkansasCattleman]

We just purchased a new Simmental bull and I am interested in knowing what y'all think about the EPDs. We are still pretty new to the EPD world, so we looked at just a few scores that we were interested in and made sure we liked the pictures of the bull before we got him. I'm going to post just the statistical numbers on here for y'all to take a look at. I'd like to know some positives and negatives from him. We are excited to have some new blood and I'm excited to hear your feedback, positive or negative. What are some things we should watch for(good or bad) in the calves out of this bull? We got him mostly for mature cows, but we do have some heifers that he'll likely need to clean up, so we wanted a good CE score. We just run commercial cattle. If more information is needed, I'll be glad to post that, too. I'll post more info later on him, just wanted some initial thoughts before I put the bloodline on here and all. Thanks in advance for any input!

 

[Josher]

I am not real familiar with simmental epds but for starters I'd say not to read into the numbers too heavily because they are unproven as shown by the accuracy column. But according to the numbers he looks to be easy calving wouldn't be afraid to use him on heifers. Although in the picture of the bull his head looks a bit on the larger side but could just be the picture. Sometimes u can get the percentile which tells you more easily where then animal ranks according to the breed. Top 10% etc. His ww and yw are probably very average. His Stayability looks good.

 

[CowboyRam]

I just bought some new bulls this year, and used the EPD's to compare the bulls so that I would get bulls that would grow similar size calves at weaning. I still don't really understand them.

 

[Springfieldsimm]

I think his numbers look pretty good. I would say on the low side for yw but like was mentioned the accuracy is low so it could vary quite a bit. To be honest I don't put a lot of weight on epds because I have seen some older genetics with bad numbers that looked really good. I would like to see a better picture of him but I think you have a good bull.

 

[moses388]

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[wbvs58]

He looks like he will do a good job for you. I would say that the EPD's have not been genomically enhanced as they all appear to be the average of his sire and dam's EPD's. Getting genomics done on him would shed a bit more light and accuracy on his EPD's. His true EPD values can swing either way to the sire or the dam.
Ken

 

[FlyingLSimmentals]

Cool there's the guy I raised and purchased by a Cattle Today member that's awesome. I'm not the best at explaining or knowing everything about the epd's but I do my best. Have low accuracy because of the small sample size of progeny out there being from my herd bull and cow that only has one calf per year. Can get the genomic enhanced epd's that would show more data. Was actually leaning to do that before yall came. He's a grandson of Hook's Eagle and has Ebony's Grandmaster, WAGR Dream Catcher, Triple C Invasion, CNS Dream On, Triple C Magic Man, WLE Power Stroke, Triple C Bettis all in pedigree. All pretty good calving bulls. He was a small little round headed calf that really showed that Hook's Eagle growth that that bull is known for. I'd be shocked if there was any calving trouble but heifers are unpredictable and some genes can hide and express themselves when you least expect it.
For the ones whom remember Ron or Bright Raven etc on here... this bull's sire came from Ron out of his masked face Tatum cow. Keep me updated on him I really enjoyed having him on the place, is one of my favorites over the years. Look forward to seeing calves on here.

 

[ArkansasCattleman]

I am not real familiar with simmental epds but for starters I'd say not to read into the numbers too heavily because they are unproven as shown by the accuracy column. But according to the numbers he looks to be easy calving wouldn't be afraid to use him on heifers. Although in the picture of the bull his head looks a bit on the larger side but could just be the picture. Sometimes u can get the percentile which tells you more easily where then animal ranks according to the breed. Top 10% etc. His ww and yw are probably very average. His Stayability looks good.

Thanks for the response! This was very helpful! I was not aware of the accuracy column. I'll get some better pictures posted soon. We are very excited to have him on our farm and to have some calves out of him, so I was just wanting someone who knows more than I do to let me know what they thought from their perspective. We're learning how this all works, so I appreciate you taking the time to share some of your thoughts!

 

[Stickney94]

EPDs are a tool. If you want to use them take the time to understand what they are and aren't (I'm familiar with Angus and Wagyu epds but of no help with Sim). EPDs can be useful but they can also be misleading. We use AI for our breeding and we moved several years ago to only using high accuracy sires (>.9 BW EPD Accuracy).
As Ken mentioned above -- for young animals their EPDs can swing as data and enhanced genomics are entered. Those swings can be significant and it's why we moved to just using high accuracy.
In short -- for your young bull if he's fertile and gets the breeding done I'd consider that a success.

 

[ArkansasCattleman]

I just bought some new bulls this year, and used the EPD's to compare the bulls so that I would get bulls that would grow similar size calves at weaning. I still don't really understand them.

They are hard to understand at first. We are learning more all the time, but we still have trouble understanding them between breeds.

 

[ArkansasCattleman]

I think his numbers look pretty good. I would say on the low side for yw but like was mentioned the accuracy is low so it could vary quite a bit. To be honest I don't put a lot of weight on epds because I have seen some older genetics with bad numbers that looked really good. I would like to see a better picture of him but I think you have a good bull.

Thanks for the response! We haven't ever really put much stock into EPDs, either, we just really liked the looks of these bulls that we got and were wondering what the EPDs looked like from some of y'all who know a lot more about them than we do. I'll work on getting some better pictures of them.

 

[ArkansasCattleman]

...

Thank you! This is basically highlighting the 50th percentile for the breed, correct?

 

[ArkansasCattleman]

He looks like he will do a good job for you. I would say that the EPD's have not been genomically enhanced as they all appear to be the average of his sire and dam's EPD's. Getting genomics done on him would shed a bit more light and accuracy on his EPD's. His true EPD values can swing either way to the sire or the dam.
Ken

Thank you! That's very helpful! We'll look into that!

 

[ArkansasCattleman]

Cool there's the guy I raised and purchased by a Cattle Today member that's awesome. I'm not the best at explaining or knowing everything about the epd's but I do my best. Have low accuracy because of the small sample size of progeny out there being from my herd bull and cow that only has one calf per year. Can get the genomic enhanced epd's that would show more data. Was actually leaning to do that before yall came. He's a grandson of Hook's Eagle and has Ebony's Grandmaster, WAGR Dream Catcher, Triple C Invasion, CNS Dream On, Triple C Magic Man, WLE Power Stroke, Triple C Bettis all in pedigree. All pretty good calving bulls. He was a small little round headed calf that really showed that Hook's Eagle growth that that bull is known for. I'd be shocked if there was any calving trouble but heifers are unpredictable and some genes can hide and express themselves when you least expect it.
For the ones whom remember Ron or Bright Raven etc on here... this bull's sire came from Ron out of his masked face Tatum cow. Keep me updated on him I really enjoyed having him on the place, is one of my favorites over the years. Look forward to seeing calves on here.

Small world! It's great to hear from you on here! Thanks for sharing his lineage on here. I didn't want to share too much information up front to keep as much bias out as possible. I started to as you more information about the EPDs when I talked with you, but I didn't want you to feel like you had to explain every little thing about them. We are very glad to have these guys from your farm on our place as our herd bulls! We will be glad to send folks your way who are looking for a herd bull! I'm the only one that will have any calves out of heifers from him. Dad's cows are all mature cows. I think he'll do just fine on them.
Good luck on that one you have left. We had a hard time deciding one which one we wanted. I'll send some photos your way when the calves start hitting the ground!
How would we go about getting the genomic data?

 

[FlyingLSimmentals]

Small world! It's great to hear from you on here! Thanks for sharing his lineage on here. I didn't want to share too much information up front to keep as much bias out as possible. I started to as you more information about the EPDs when I talked with you, but I didn't want you to feel like you had to explain every little thing about them. We are very glad to have these guys from your farm on our place as our herd bulls! We will be glad to send folks your way who are looking for a herd bull! I'm the only one that will have any calves out of heifers from him. Dad's cows are all mature cows. I think he'll do just fine on them.
Good luck on that one you have left. We had a hard time deciding one which one we wanted. I'll send some photos your way when the calves start hitting the ground!
How would we go about getting the genomic data?

It sure can be. Told dad after your parents left that your dad looked familiar from somewhere but not sure where. Enjoyed meeting them and knew who was gonna get which bull when your mom said she liked the one with the black around the eyes. The one you got was my favorite but all three are good bulls. The K6 is just a little stubborn sometimes and wants to run a bluff a little. I did get him to eat alfalfa cubes a little from hand before leaving. I call them by their names at feeding so they pretty much know it or just called them Eagles. Didn't get around to asking your dad what breed or type of cattle y'all ran. The bulls momma's are Homo. Black and the sire is Hetero. Black so they could be one or the other. The American Simmental Association I think should be able to mail you kits for the genomic testing with instructions and address on where to send the sample for it to be tested.