My New SAV Bull

[Nesikep]

I find this guy about as heavy boned as I'd ever want, I'm just looking for a happy medium... When I keep a steer for freezer beef, I want one that was growthy, they're the ones that keep growing... I guess if you're going to give them enough ralgro and grain and etc you can make the dinks finally grow too.. I'll let someone else bother with them


Here's my favorite bull and heifer calf (best buddies) for this year, If I can get all my herd looking like them I'll be a happy guy


their mommas as bred heifers (best buddies too), they're 8 years old now, 1400ish lbs, about frame 5 mature

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

There are lots of branded programs today.

Correct - but if you talked to a "city person", would they have a clue what they are? I was born & raised in the city (Pawtucket, Rhode Island) and all my family are "city" people. Everyone knows what Angus beef is!!!!

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

There are lots of branded programs today.

Correct - but if you talked to a "city person", would they have a clue what they are? I was born & raised in the city (Pawtucket, Rhode Island) and all my family are "city" people. Everyone knows what Angus beef is!!!!

Yet thousands of people think chocolate milk comes from brown cows.

 

[Ebenezer]

Why does everyone seem to lump all bulls with less BW into a freak category. The term "curve bender" has a real meaning and it does not mean no growth and chicken boned. But they can and do come with lower BW. Seems to be more of a poor marketing technique rather than a truthful discussion.

 

[Bright Raven]

Why does everyone seem to lump all bulls with less BW into a freak category. The term "curve bender" has a real meaning and it does not mean no growth and chicken boned. But they can and do come with lower BW. Seems to be more of a poor marketing technique rather than a truthful discussion.

Correct. The low end of the BW dataset is not a subset, it is part of the entire universe of BW data. That is how data is suppose to be viewed. If you want to define the dataset, you calculate a median, an average and a range. The low end of the curve still is part of the entire set.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Why does everyone seem to lump all bulls with less BW into a freak category. The term "curve bender" has a real meaning and it does not mean no growth and chicken boned. But they can and do come with lower BW. Seems to be more of a poor marketing technique rather than a truthful discussion.

You are absolutely correct. This is what I try to use. Actually, there are some curve benders that are super great CE and are at the top end of growth - W/C Executive Order (Simmental) is one of them. He is in the top 5% for CE and BW, top 10% for WW and about the top 12% for YW. Truly a curve bender. And by his calves, they are holding true to those kind of EPD's.
My referring to people using too much CE is those that want the top 5% CE bull and don't care what the rest of his traits are. And, they turn around and keep using CE on their cows. You and I don't do that, but there are more and more breeders doing it, claiming they don't want to babysit their cows. Well, I guess I babysit mine - but, more for the unexpected abnormal presentation than a hard calving due to size of the calf vs size of the dam. Every calf I save is maybe $900-$1000 after weaning - if it's a steer. We may only help 2-3 a year - but that's minimum $2 -$3000 dollars saved. I'm in this game to make money. If it is a heifer we saved - we are talking definitely worth it!

 

[Ebenezer]

Using an AAA search in the main sires for CED a minimum of +10, min YW +70, min YH +0.2, min MW +25 and min MH of +.1 turned up 289 sires. A number of known AI bulls such as 1407, Epic, All In and a lot of bulls from well known source herds are in the list. That tells me that folks might be looking to moderate calf weight but are doing so sensibly. Sort of have your cake and eat it too.

 

[elkwc]

Why does everyone seem to lump all bulls with less BW into a freak category. The term "curve bender" has a real meaning and it does not mean no growth and chicken boned. But they can and do come with lower BW. Seems to be more of a poor marketing technique rather than a truthful discussion.

IMO the issue is the CE not the BW. Usually a bull with a high CE will be smoother muscled and lighter boned. They have packed the muscle on some which has led to structural issues. The issue with packing more muscle on a light frame is similar to exceeding the weight limit of trailer axles. They don't hold up.

I'm currently using an Angus bull with a 75# BW but would have a lower CE because of his type. His calves run from the 70's to low 80's. But they aren't as sleek. He weighed 1,000# at 8 months with no creep and is big boned by todays standards same as his mother. This is the first full calf crop he has sired and a few are starting to fill out and look good. His sire has sired several bulls that have either topped or been at the the top of feed efficiency tests. The one in the picture shared by Nesi would be heavy boned compared to most Angus today. IMO a BW in the 80's is a moderate BW. Anything below 80 is on the low end. Many today feel a moderate BW is below 70.

 

[76 Bar]

Food for thought.
http://becktonredangus.com/BKT-EPDs.php

 

[CattleMan1920]

In an attempt to bring this thread back in line with the original title, I would like to share this video I found, and some information.

Nothing against Young or his bull, but $5k for a President bull would have made all the red flags go up for me. Actual President sons are not cheap, and I would have wondered why I was getting such a deal. Just my opinion.

This bull below brought $40k for a 1/2 interest. He is not fully DNA tested, but he has a snip, so he is the real deal.

McConnell's Independent 8434

Here is the AAA info

http://bit.ly/2YpOHnm

They didn't breed him, they bought him, from SAV.

Here is a video of him. He's a great looking bull

http://bit.ly/2vYap5W

There is no free lunch in this world, if it's too good to be true, it probably is...

High quality, PROVEN, President sons are probably worth more like $10-15k instead of $5k. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Jake]

High quality, PROVEN, President sons are probably worth more like $10-15k instead of $5k. Again, just my opinion.

Good lord man, there's not such thing as a proven President son. The bull isn't the second coming. His first calves haven't even bred yet. There's no deciding which of that flush is the best and won't be and deciding for a few years.

We get it, you have a hard on for President but let's live in a fact based world and quit jumping the gun with novels about the superiority of 2-3 year old sires.

 

[W.B.]

In an attempt to bring this thread back in line with the original title, I would like to share this video I found, and some information.

Nothing against Young or his bull, but $5k for a President bull would have made all the red flags go up for me. Actual President sons are not cheap, and I would have wondered why I was getting such a deal. Just my opinion.

This bull below brought $40k for a 1/2 interest. He is not fully DNA tested, but he has a snip, so he is the real deal.

McConnell's Independent 8434

Here is the AAA info

http://bit.ly/2YpOHnm

They didn't breed him, they bought him, from SAV.

Here is a video of him. He's a great looking bull

http://bit.ly/2vYap5W

There is no free lunch in this world, if it's too good to be true, it probably is...

High quality, PROVEN, President sons are probably worth more like $10-15k instead of $5k. Again, just my opinion.

That is a nice bull. He brings some good things to the table similar to the SAV President sons I viewed in Feb. Not my type though.

 

[CattleMan1920]

High quality, PROVEN, President sons are probably worth more like $10-15k instead of $5k. Again, just my opinion.

Good lord man, there's not such thing as a proven President son. The bull isn't the second coming. His first calves haven't even bred yet. There's no deciding which of that flush is the best and won't be and deciding for a few years.

We get it, you have a hard on for President but let's live in a fact based world and quit jumping the gun with novels about the superiority of 2-3 year old sires.

Calm down Jake, what I stated was that he was ACTUALLY a DNA proven son of President, not some other bull. He was the real article. I was saying that if a President son can be traced with DNA as being authentic, that they would bring higher prices. I've watched sales closely in Kentucky this year, and I didn't see a single one for sale. Lot's of Cowboy Up, Rampage, and Fortress, but an actual President? Good luck in finding one, they are rare.

I made no mention of his future prospects, although, if this McConnell bull produces inferior progeny, it will be a huge fluke.

 

[Ebenezer]

Nothing against Young or his bull, but $5k for a President bull would have made all the red flags go up for me. Actual President sons are not cheap, and I would have wondered why I was getting such a deal. Just my opinion.

So you assume the seller knew that he was selling a bull with wrong parentage? I do not get your point to accuse folks whom you generally worship.

 

[CattleMan1920]

High quality, PROVEN, President sons are probably worth more like $10-15k instead of $5k. Again, just my opinion.

Good lord man, there's not such thing as a proven President son. The bull isn't the second coming. His first calves haven't even bred yet. There's no deciding which of that flush is the best and won't be and deciding for a few years.

We get it, you have a hard on for President but let's live in a fact based world and quit jumping the gun with novels about the superiority of 2-3 year old sires.

Also, as a seed stock producer, there is only so long you can offer up Rampage, Fortress, and Cowboy Up sons, pretty soon they are a dime a dozen.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Nothing against Young or his bull, but $5k for a President bull would have made all the red flags go up for me. Actual President sons are not cheap, and I would have wondered why I was getting such a deal. Just my opinion.

So you assume the seller knew that he was selling a bull with wrong parentage? I do not get your point to accuse folks whom you generally worship.

Eb, I don't worship SAV, I use their genetics, get it straight. I also have other genetics going on out here, which I know you are aware of if you read my posts carefully.

I'm not saying that Young was tricked. I personally think Young's story doesn't add up. That what I'm ACTUALLY saying.

 

[Jake]

High quality, PROVEN, President sons are probably worth more like $10-15k instead of $5k. Again, just my opinion.

Good lord man, there's not such thing as a proven President son. The bull isn't the second coming. His first calves haven't even bred yet. There's no deciding which of that flush is the best and won't be and deciding for a few years.

We get it, you have a hard on for President but let's live in a fact based world and quit jumping the gun with novels about the superiority of 2-3 year old sires.

Calm down Jake, what I stated was that he was ACTUALLY a DNA proven son of President, not some other bull. He was the real article.

I made no mention of his future prospects, although, if this McConnell bull produces inferior progeny, it will be a huge fluke.

You're not getting the point. Just because Herbster paid $750 for President and Bell only paid $460 for Rainfall is not the defining point of which bull is going to end up better. At this point NOBODY knows, they may have opinions but both of these bulls have the ability to fade out similar to what the $725,000 Pedigree bull did. Money paid for then doesn't define which one ended up being the better bull, it was the preference of a person on a given day.

I realize fully that talking to you about this is like arguing with a wall but there are not enough data points on any of these bulls to proclaim greatness. Have you even seen either bull in the flesh?

 

[CattleMan1920]

Good lord man, there's not such thing as a proven President son. The bull isn't the second coming. His first calves haven't even bred yet. There's no deciding which of that flush is the best and won't be and deciding for a few years.

We get it, you have a hard on for President but let's live in a fact based world and quit jumping the gun with novels about the superiority of 2-3 year old sires.

Calm down Jake, what I stated was that he was ACTUALLY a DNA proven son of President, not some other bull. He was the real article.

I made no mention of his future prospects, although, if this McConnell bull produces inferior progeny, it will be a huge fluke.

You're not getting the point. Just because Herbster paid $750 for President and Bell only paid $460 for Rainfall is not the defining point of which bull is going to end up better. At this point NOBODY knows, they may have opinions but both of these bulls have the ability to fade out similar to what the $725,000 Pedigree bull did. Money paid for then doesn't define which one ended up being the better bull, it was the preference of a person on a given day.

I realize fully that talking to you about this is like arguing with a wall but there are not enough data points on any of these bulls to proclaim greatness. Have you even seen either bull in the flesh?

Haven't seen them in the flesh, but I have actual progeny that I can put my hand on that is DNA proven, and I would venture to say that they are very nice animals indeed.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Good lord man, there's not such thing as a proven President son. The bull isn't the second coming. His first calves haven't even bred yet. There's no deciding which of that flush is the best and won't be and deciding for a few years.

We get it, you have a hard on for President but let's live in a fact based world and quit jumping the gun with novels about the superiority of 2-3 year old sires.

Calm down Jake, what I stated was that he was ACTUALLY a DNA proven son of President, not some other bull. He was the real article.

I made no mention of his future prospects, although, if this McConnell bull produces inferior progeny, it will be a huge fluke.

You're not getting the point. Just because Herbster paid $750 for President and Bell only paid $460 for Rainfall is not the defining point of which bull is going to end up better. At this point NOBODY knows, they may have opinions but both of these bulls have the ability to fade out similar to what the $725,000 Pedigree bull did. Money paid for then doesn't define which one ended up being the better bull, it was the preference of a person on a given day.

I realize fully that talking to you about this is like arguing with a wall but there are not enough data points on any of these bulls to proclaim greatness. Have you even seen either bull in the flesh?

Jake, the great thing about the cattle business is this, you can choose to completely ignore these bulls and go your own path. However that might work out for you. Maybe you will breed a stud, maybe a dud. I like to eliminate as many variables as I can, and President fits that bill for me.

 

[Jake]

Haven't seen them in the flesh, but I have actual progeny that I can put my hand on that is DNA proven, and I would venture to say that they are very nice animals indeed.

Watched both bulls sell and have progeny from both on the place that I purchased as a experiment. To this point there is not enough separation to claim either superior. Wait until some daughters breed and calve then maybe we'll know something. Both bulls have a heck of a lot to prove before I have any interest in using their genetics on large groups of cows. Nice looking animals don't pay any bills if they don't breed timely and replicate a marketable product. So it's too early to claim anything at this point other than liking the way calves and yearlings look.