My New SAV Bull

[Ebenezer]

Seeing a name on a straw is not insurance. The worst off type cattle we ever got was from a national semen company and a highly promoted Angus bull. Was a "cow maker" with a lot of proof and no calving issues in the catalog and all sales promotions. Calves came brown, large and fine boned. Worst set of calves we probably had from AI as a whole. Chunked out the semen and sold all the calves as culls.

Correct. It could be either mislabeled or simply bogus. But looking at the label is about all you can do unless you send a straw in for testing. However, today the bigger semen companies have elaborate protocols to address mislabeling and mishandling.

Semen is still available on the internet if you want any! :lol:

 

[Ebenezer]

I personally think the guy averaging $14000 per bull at his sale should pick up the expense of parentage testing his sale bulls before the sale. I know he is scared to do 50K on them but parentage just eliminates his liability from things like this happening. Especially since he or his employees are not there to watch the donors breed, the recips to calve, the calves to grow at the cooperator herds.

It makes you wonder "why not"?

 

[W.B.]

Not parentage testing an et calf is reckless for anyone that is registering said progeny. Why SAV is not parentage testing everything they register is reckless in my opinion. Cows switch calves all the time no matter how careful you are.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I had never DNA parent tested my cattle. Last year, I DNA tested the whole herd down to replacement heifer calves (including parent testing). I had ONE cow come back that the sire did not match. She was purchased - they checked a clean up bull used on that farm (son of AI sire) and it was a match. They re-issued registration papers on the only two daughters out of the cow. But, all my cows calve in a separate pen, so no chance of switching. Other than a couple of years using a clean up bull, my farm never has a breeding age bull on it. Even when I owned a mature bull, I partnered with another farm that kept the bull year-round other than the 30 days I used him.
I have to say, it seems a bit lax to have such a huge enterprise with coop farms involved and not DNA parent testing.

Saying red flags should have come up because "he only brought $5000" is a bit ridiculous. We all saw pictures of the bull and he looked great. I would venture to bet that there are President sired calves out in the industry that absolutely do not warrant $5000. NO bull produces 100% perfect phenotype offspring - even bred to flush sisters.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I personally think the guy averaging $14000 per bull at his sale should pick up the expense of parentage testing his sale bulls before the sale. I know he is scared to do 50K on them but parentage just eliminates his liability from things like this happening. Especially since he or his employees are not there to watch the donors breed, the recips to calve, the calves to grow at the cooperator herds.

Agreed. I don't believe anyone here disagrees with what you've stated.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I had never DNA parent tested my cattle. Last year, I DNA tested the whole herd down to replacement heifer calves (including parent testing). I had ONE cow come back that the sire did not match. She was purchased - they checked a clean up bull used on that farm (son of AI sire) and it was a match. They re-issued registration papers on the only two daughters out of the cow. But, all my cows calve in a separate pen, so no chance of switching. Other than a couple of years using a clean up bull, my farm never has a breeding age bull on it. Even when I owned a mature bull, I partnered with another farm that kept the bull year-round other than the 30 days I used him.
I have to say, it seems a bit lax to have such a huge enterprise with coop farms involved and not DNA parent testing.

Saying red flags should have come up because "he only brought $5000" is a bit ridiculous. We all saw pictures of the bull and he looked great. I would venture to bet that there are President sired calves out in the industry that absolutely do not warrant $5000. NO bull produces 100% perfect phenotype offspring - even bred to flush sisters.

We do not buy any cattle that haven't had DNA done, over the coarse of the last couple years. I've made ONE exception to this recently but we pulled blood on her as soon as we got her home. As for our calves, when they're weaned, we pull blood. We won't pull blood on anything we choose to cull.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I personally think the guy averaging $14000 per bull at his sale should pick up the expense of parentage testing his sale bulls before the sale. I know he is scared to do 50K on them but parentage just eliminates his liability from things like this happening. Especially since he or his employees are not there to watch the donors breed, the recips to calve, the calves to grow at the cooperator herds.

It makes you wonder "why not"?

I can a big dog not DNA testing their cattle, even though they should. But for the small producer everything extra you can do for your customer is a plus. Besides most small producer's are on a shoe string budget and can't afford to settle any major screw ups.
And yes Ron, Cook has every registered animal 50k DNA tested before it's sold.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Grit - I PI-BVD test all my heifers and bulls. Only "have to" for our show cattle, but I do all of them for ME. A PI calf is bad news. Never had one - hope never will. I vaccinate everything.

 

[Bright Raven]

Remember this if you are testing for exposure to pathogens - if the animal was vaccinated you are going to experience false positives because some antibody titers are going to show up. Each disease caused by a pathogen has various types of tests. PI-BVD is routine testing but some infectious diseases are going to require some different procedures. Some might require urine, etc.

I know a producer that tests everything leaving for BVD, IBR and anaplasmosis.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Remember this if you are testing for exposure to pathogens - if the animal was vaccinated you are going to experience false positives because some antibody titers are going to show up. Each disease caused by a pathogen has various types of tests. PI-BVD is routine testing but some infectious diseases are going to require some different procedures. Some might require urine, etc.

I know a producer that tests everything leaving for BVD, IBR and anaplasmosis.

IMO I think that's the way it should be done with all registered stock.

 

[CreekAngus]

I personally think the guy averaging $14000 per bull at his sale should pick up the expense of parentage testing his sale bulls before the sale. I know he is scared to do 50K on them but parentage just eliminates his liability from things like this happening. Especially since he or his employees are not there to watch the donors breed, the recips to calve, the calves to grow at the cooperator herds.

Problem for them that 950lb weaning weight that is throwing an ww-88 will collapse to a moderate ww once an 50k is done. SAV has nice cattle but over the years they have been the masters of the EPD game. Herbster's 1.2million should finance a lot of 50k's for the next decade.

 

[CattleMan1920]

So, you're calling bullsheit on his story?

It sounds like there was definitely a miscommunication on someone's part.

So who caused the "miscommunication" Kelly Schaff, or the people that do the catalog?
Have you ever seen either President or Rainfall in person?
What makes Presidents so much more valuable than Rainfalls?
Last one what is a President son worth from a outfit without a national reputation? ie Your place versus SAV?

It's not about one place versus another. We are not SAV, that is established, but we do have the Historic Angus Award in hand which only a few operations can claim. In fact, we could stand a chance of hitting the 100-year award, but I'm not sure many on CT will be around to troll us about that when it happens. We aren't competing against SAV. Don't get confused.

What's being discussed here is this, if a buyer is wanting an animal that can be traced back to President, but then finds out what they bought cannot be traced back via DNA to President, then that's a problem.

You may be fine with whatever, but I want what I want, NO substitutes! Period! If the wrong semen was shipped to me; I wouldn't say "well, ok, guess I'll just use this instead"

I've not seen either bull. Kelly Schaff cordially invited me to his operation to see them both, but I could not get away at the time. I greatly appreciated the invite.

I'm not sure what a President son is worth? Who knows? Mine are not ready for service yet. I'm going to use them for cleanup, so I probably won't even have them offered for a while anyway. I've already had a couple of people that want to buy them now, as is, but they aren't for sale. I've got more President daughters than sons right now, which was what I was ultimately breeding for, the sons are nice but the daughters are far more valuable to me. Since you want a number though, it would take above $10k or more to buy each one that I have, I wouldn't sell them for less, at least not anytime soon.

NEFarmWife would have you believe that there are President progeny everywhere. Everyone has a least 5-6 running around. The truth of the matter is this, as of today there are only 122 that are DNA PARENTAGE PROVEN according to AAA. Let's assume half of those are females, so that leaves about 60 or so bulls, where the parentage is actually proven. When you look at how many Angus operations there are in existence and when you look at the entire cattle population of the United States, or globally, that number of President progeny is basically a rounding error.

Now let's look at AI, everyone on CT seems to be an expert, so this shouldn't be hard to grasp. You get a straw of President, you get a cow settled, then you wait for a little bit over 9 months, assuming the calf, a bull is born and is healthy, then you wait another 14-16 months for him to be service ready, assuming he can pass a BSE. Now assuming everything goes absolutely perfect, he's ready to use on someone's herd. We are looking at a minimum two year process to create that SPECIFIC animal for a buyer. Jeanne, I agree, there can be a chance for a dud, but most of the time, if you have really good dams, the duds should be limited. So back to what I was saying, two years of work so you can hand him off for $3k. What are you smoking folks? You are valuing your time and effort at almost NOTHING. I will have no problem selling registered grandsons of President for $3k all day long here in the Bluegrass, why would I let a son of President go for less than $10k, at least right now? When there are 2000 President sons DNA proven, they lose their scarcity premium and you move on to the next bull. If you don't understand what I said, you should read it a few times, or pick up an Economics textbook.

Another thing to consider, let's assume I take a President son and put him on 20 or so registered females, and assuming I get 10-15 sons. I could offer them out at $2k and still make plenty of profit. Think about it, you get a $2k bull that is a grandson of President, and because I test everything, it's actually what is being offered? That's a bargain. Suddenly little Pres junior is worth a bit more than what NEFarmWife or others would have you think.

 

[jehosofat]

What happened to the OP in this discussion?

 

[CattleMan1920]

I had never DNA parent tested my cattle. Last year, I DNA tested the whole herd down to replacement heifer calves (including parent testing). I had ONE cow come back that the sire did not match. She was purchased - they checked a clean up bull used on that farm (son of AI sire) and it was a match. They re-issued registration papers on the only two daughters out of the cow. But, all my cows calve in a separate pen, so no chance of switching. Other than a couple of years using a clean up bull, my farm never has a breeding age bull on it. Even when I owned a mature bull, I partnered with another farm that kept the bull year-round other than the 30 days I used him.
I have to say, it seems a bit lax to have such a huge enterprise with coop farms involved and not DNA parent testing.

Saying red flags should have come up because "he only brought $5000" is a bit ridiculous. We all saw pictures of the bull and he looked great. I would venture to bet that there are President sired calves out in the industry that absolutely do not warrant $5000. NO bull produces 100% perfect phenotype offspring - even bred to flush sisters.

Jeanne, you are right!

Someone takes a straw of President and uses him on a non-registered, regular cow, and gets a bull, It's a pretty safe bet to say that he will struggle to bring much of a premium. Case in point. I go to the yards, buy a $300 cull cow, I manage to get her settled to President and get a bull, he's probably not going to bring much.

You are in the registered business, you know how it works. There are people out there using President on some VERY NICE cows, and for that effort, they are going to command more than $3k for the animal. In our state, that is close to the price you get for a registered grandson or great-grandson, not a direct son. Listen to the auctioneers when they say "this great-grandson is from such and such" Most sales here in the Bluegrass put the direct AI sons at the front of the sale, and after they sell, almost always at a premium, most people are walking out, and by the end of the sale it's usually just the bargain hunters left and the people looking for a free meal. I can't recall a registered Angus sale that I've seen in Kentucky whereby every last animal sold was a direct son of a top AI sire, and proven via DNA, and where the ENTIRE CROWD remained until the last bull was sold. The majority of registered bulls sold in Kentucky are multiple generations away from the sire that the auctioneer is squawking about.

A direct son, from a top dam, that is problem free, and has excellent phenotype has a completely different market than a great-grandson that is not even DNA tested. You know that.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Someone's smoking the wacky weed.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Someone's smoking the wacky weed.

When are you going to post pics and vids of your President progeny? I for one am holding my breath, and turning blue. Don't forget to DNA test them first, might be an ole mix up at the "CO-OP", or "I've got so many head of cattle, and I'm so important, that when you AI 9000 head a year it's just hard to tell who is who?

I'm sure CT members can get together a Go Fund Me page to help you rustle up the registration and testing costs for a few calves for us to look at, we wouldn't expect you to test your entire herd, which probably rivals what XIT once had.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Everyone out there has one of these in the pasture. EVERYONE!!!!

http://bit.ly/2vYap5W

Oh, wait, I hear it coming......"he's fat", "I would have steered him", "He'd be in my freezer" or "90 percent of my bulls are cut until only genetic perfection remains"

Folks, let's call it for what it is, if the majority of members on CT could produce the bull above, they would have him sleeping in the house with them.

Enough of the bullshyte.

I bet there was no mix up on the bull above either. Just a strong hunch I have.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Well folks don't need me doing it,I can't even improve a bunch of scrubs..

 

[True Grit Farms]

Anyone can buy a straw of semen of any bull currently available. So it's a safe bet that there's more president bulls coming on line every day. Yet Branded is keeping their president bulls for cleanup? Why not AI to the real president and sell the bulls for $10k+ each? I can see not letting a president heifer go till things sort themselves out but there's an endless supply of semen available, and America the great will be out before you know it.
None of this makes any sense to me, I believe Branded is trolling us.

 

[Ebenezer]

Anyone can buy a straw of semen of any bull currently available. So it's a safe bet that there's more president bulls coming on line every day. Yet Branded is keeping their president bulls for cleanup? Why not AI to the real president and sell the bulls for $10k+ each? I can see not letting a president heifer go till things sort themselves out but there's an endless supply of semen available, and America the great will be out before you know it.
None of this makes any sense to me, I believe Branded is trolling us.

Must be something in his economics book. Hold, don't sell. Meanwhile he is turning blue from not breathing." :frowns:

Blue BH of Kentucky, keep on typing,
type on until all the hype is gone-e-e,
Blue BH of Kentucky keep on posting, send us long replies,
teach us all the ways we're wrong and you are true."