More cows vs. Big cows

[dun]

They are all closer to 4.5 to a bit over 5 at the hip. I don't have any calves that are that short, as that is pretty small for a three month old calf.

a FS of 1 is around 36 inches and a FS 7 is around 55 inches

 

[TexasBred]

TexasBred, If they could were getting by on 1 1/2 quarts for the whole winter, they would have to make lines, and start snorting it!!!

When you don't specify I have to "assume" and you know what that does. Have seen some that fed even less than a quart a year. Thanks anyway

 

[xbred]

Re: More cows vs. Big cows
by BRG » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:46 am

Their is more to it than just smaller cows. Yes they may eat less and you may be able to raise more pounds of beef per acre off a smaller cow. But the rest of the story isn't told in a smaller cow. We purchase for hire and feed quite a few calves out every year. Typically the smaller framed calves kill lighter and don't do as well in the feedlot. Their are more yield grade 4's in a smaller animal which is a huge discount as well. The smaller cattle need to be backgrounded longer because otherwise they get fat to early, they need to be grown out first. So with all of this, feeders will usually shy away from smaller framed cattle. I realize we can't raise cattle for the feeder only, but we need to keep them in consideration, otherwise you will not get paid like you could. The feeders will not buy the same calves next year if they don't do what the feeder needs them to do. Now I am not promoting big frame cattle here, but their is a happy medium we can fit in where it isn't to small or to big. In our environment, you can't keep one real small, as the grass is real powerful and it allows them to grow. Where is the South East US it seems to be just the opposite. The feeders like cattle that will kill around 1350 lbs, and if the genetics are right in the cattle, the feeder calves will get to that size, what ever size the cow is in her environment.

Also, when it comes to selling calves off the cow at weaning, yes a lighter weight calf usually brings more per pound than a heavy calf. But it is usually the second cut of a decent size frame group of calves that get the good premium. Not the ones that are to small framed. I have been told several times by buyers not to bid on so and so's calves as they are out of too small framed cows. Now if your entire goal is to produce more pounds of beef per acre, then the smaller cow is the way to go. But if you want to be profitable and if you want your customer, who is the feeder, to be profitable and to come back and leave a competitive bid on your calves year after year, then I think you should look at the bigger picture, not just from birth to weaning.

We have found that the 5 to 6 frame herd sire will produce the type cow and feeder calf that works for us and our customers the best and yet has a good demand from the feeders.


thank you!!

 

[Oldtimer]

Genetic Tools to Address Environmental Challenges and Cow Herd Efficiency

by Troy Smith, field editor, for Angus Journal®



OKLAHOMA CITY, Okla. (June 14, 2013) — In recent years, weaned calf prices have reached record levels. But the prices cattle producers pay for many production inputs also have increased dramatically. That's particularly true for grazed forages, which historically have been a least-cost feed resource. Certainly, commercial cow-calf producers must be cost-conscious in order to maintain profitability, let alone improve it.



With production costs so high, it's not surprising to hear so much talk about developing new genetic selection tools for improving feed efficiency. However, Oklahoma State University animal scientist David Lalman fears past and current selection emphasis for growth is making beef cows more expensive to maintain.



Speaking during the 2013 Beef Improvement Federation Research Symposium and Convention, Lalman discussed the trend toward cows of larger mature size and greater milking ability. Such cows have higher nutrient requirements for which the added cost, in many cases, is not offset by increased productivity. Lalman cited data from various cow country regions suggesting trends in both weaning weight and weaning rate, for several years, have been mostly flat.



While the earlier trend toward bigger frame size has been curbed, Lalman said mature cow weight per inch of height continues to increase. He said research indicates that for every 100 pounds (lb.) of increased mature cow weight, her calf weighs an additional 6 lb. at weaning. The value of that added calf weight probably ranges from $5 to $7.



"But every 100 pounds of additional cow weight costs about $42 in added maintenance cost," stated Lalman. "You need 50 pounds of calf weight to pay for it, and we're a long way from that."



Generally, there has been a push for more muscle and more capacity, but less fat. There is potential for negative impact to fertility, as well as nutrient requirements. Less body fat in proportion to muscle means these cows have to be heavier to obtain the same fat composition, which is still the best mediator we are aware of driving fertility, Lalman said. Bigger cows may have to achieve a higher body condition score to be in optimum condition for reproduction, and producers may have trouble distinguishing what's muscle and what's fat when trying to assess whether cows are in optimal condition for rebreeding.



Regarding selection for milk, Lalman said selection has pushed lactation potential so far that cows of some beef breeds are approaching maintenance levels for the Holstein breed.



"I suggest to you," said Lalman, "that the pendulum has already swung too far, and we are trying to make the environment fit the kind of cows we like."



Lalman said targeting more moderation in growth, mature size and milk, combined with modification of ranch stocking rates would seem a good response to economic trends and likely would result in increased efficiency.



Return to the Newsroom for links to the PowerPoint presentation that accompanied this presentation.

http://www.bifconference.com/bif2013/su ... alman.html

 

[Jessica06]

Great article. Thanks!

 

[Oldtimer]

"Average always gives you
fewer problems. Yet, as a
registered bull seller, average
is hard to sell. You can hardly
give a below-average-milk-
EPD bull away. The bottom
line is, the cow has to match
the environment."
— Larry Leonhardt

http://www.angusjournal.com/ArticlePDF/ ... sFrame.pdf

 

[u4411clb]

Goes to show that pretty much a man has to use what works best in his own operation. Because me personally before I can even worry about frame score is how well the cow does on endophyte fescue. She can be smaller size and efficient but if she can't handle fungi infested fescue I will make more from the large frame cow that can handle fescue better. Does me no good no matter how efficient size wise if they have rough hair in summer standing in ponds and limping from foot rot from fescue foot and missing tails so getting eaten to death by flies and mosquitos. There are so many variables that trying to offer someone advice that doesn't farm directly next door to you is almost apples and oranges.

 

[Andrew22]

Just wondering how most folks are actually weighting your cows? Do you have a main working area set up with scales or do you have a portable scale you take to pastures? When you're talking about weaning a percentage of the cow, are you using an adjusted 205 day wean weight?

We are using animal scale for weighting but in this way you need more time to weight your animal and it cost you more because you need more than one scale to get the weight quickly.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Re: More cows vs. Big cows
by BRG » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:46 am

Their is more to it than just smaller cows. Yes they may eat less and you may be able to raise more pounds of beef per acre off a smaller cow. But the rest of the story isn't told in a smaller cow. We purchase for hire and feed quite a few calves out every year. Typically the smaller framed calves kill lighter and don't do as well in the feedlot. Their are more yield grade 4's in a smaller animal which is a huge discount as well. The smaller cattle need to be backgrounded longer because otherwise they get fat to early, they need to be grown out first. So with all of this, feeders will usually shy away from smaller framed cattle. I realize we can't raise cattle for the feeder only, but we need to keep them in consideration, otherwise you will not get paid like you could. The feeders will not buy the same calves next year if they don't do what the feeder needs them to do. Now I am not promoting big frame cattle here, but their is a happy medium we can fit in where it isn't to small or to big. In our environment, you can't keep one real small, as the grass is real powerful and it allows them to grow. Where is the South East US it seems to be just the opposite. The feeders like cattle that will kill around 1350 lbs, and if the genetics are right in the cattle, the feeder calves will get to that size, what ever size the cow is in her environment.

Also, when it comes to selling calves off the cow at weaning, yes a lighter weight calf usually brings more per pound than a heavy calf. But it is usually the second cut of a decent size frame group of calves that get the good premium. Not the ones that are to small framed. I have been told several times by buyers not to bid on so and so's calves as they are out of too small framed cows. Now if your entire goal is to produce more pounds of beef per acre, then the smaller cow is the way to go. But if you want to be profitable and if you want your customer, who is the feeder, to be profitable and to come back and leave a competitive bid on your calves year after year, then I think you should look at the bigger picture, not just from birth to weaning.

We have found that the 5 to 6 frame herd sire will produce the type cow and feeder calf that works for us and our customers the best and yet has a good demand from the feeders.


thank you!!

This quote by BRG from last July is an excellent example of WHY all producers, both cow/calf and feedlot operators have the obligations to BALANCE their protocols with common sense and what will work for them, as different ideas and dogma seem to dictate changes! It would pay everyone to read this post by BRG two or three times and understand everything that may apply to their own particular operation. There is not one answer for everyone.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Nesikep]

That PDF article is pretty good, though I think there's room for some research on wether there is really any benefit to calving the first timers out earlier... I'm seeing mixed results in my herd when I compare the breedback rate of the cows that calved early in the season compared to the ones who calved later, and it's particularly true about the heavier producers. I am finding that wtih heavy producers, they breed back better if they are exposed to the bull within 2 months of calving, if you get to 3+ months, they've been milking for so long that they've depleted more of their reserves, and thus don't breed back as well.
For selecting heifers, I tend to agree.. I usually don't take the biggest heifers, particularly if it's just frame and not the entire package. if I have 10 heifers, I'll usually discard the smallest 5, and the biggest one, and the remaining 4 will evidently also have to be structurally sound, but that's about what I like.

For cows, The cow has to have the *right* milk production for the feed that it has in front of it... Too much milk and too poor feed makes open cows, and the opposite makes for fat cows that give you small calves... :deadhorse:

I find in my conditions a 13-1500 lb mature weight is good, If I had room for a bigger herd with more than 1 bull, I'd probably choose a frame 5 bull for cows I want replacement heifers from, and a larger framed bull as a terminal. The same size logic works for the calves as well, you won't get the best bang if you have cows that have more milk than the calf has growth potential to use, but you will end up with a sorry looking animal if the calf needs more milk than the cow can give.

The following 2 animals are mother and daughter that seem to match what I need nicely, and though they may have their defects that won't make them win shows, they do have everything it takes to do well in a production environment. The mother had 16 calves in 17 years, her calves were right around herd average for weight, all of them have had good hooves, udders, etc.. In the 50 calves I've had from the grandmother's line, every one lived to weaning, and though I have assisted with a couple births, we've never needed a puller or much grunting. Both seem to be above average in feed efficiency, they are among the first to leave the feed bunk, and the daughter in particular is an easy keeper despite her calves weaning in the top 25% of the herd... Her last bull calf was 700 @ 205 days.

 

[Nesikep]

Here is the mother at 15 years, a fairly small cow for being half Saler

And the daughter. She is a bigger animal (half shorthorn) , though she is still well proportioned

 

[Andrew22]

We are using Brecknell DS1000 Floor Scale it have accuracy up to 0.5lb and we cal easily measure the weight of all animal easily. And it also have many other features with affordable price.