More cows vs. Big cows

[Dega Moo]

Just wondering how most folks are actually weighting your cows? Do you have a main working area set up with scales or do you have a portable scale you take to pastures? When you're talking about weaning a percentage of the cow, are you using an adjusted 205 day wean weight?

We picked up our squeeze chute with the tractor and put a set of Tru Test load bars under it, bolted onto brackets that are welded to the chute, and then bolted into the slab we poured. Lot of work, but worth it. A friend had a chute sized portable cage built with scales under it..pretty nifty. We have a "main" area and barn where we have load bars permanently set but most of our cow and young calf work happen in pasture corrals(two counties) where we pull a portable chute. I can't imagine bringing every cow back to the main barn to be weighed. Thinking about how to set up scales out in the field.

I think if you use a 205 day weight, it will tell you how your genetics are doing, but that's about it. If they aren't X% AT weaning, they are 1) poor milkers, 2) late calving, or 3) bred to bulls lacking growth. Knowing what their calves SHOULD have weighed in 60 days isn't going to make your check any bigger.

Rephrasing to check my understanding - the calf crop is weaned on a single calendar day and the calf's weight on that day, regardless of age is the weaned weight. Is that right?

 

[Jessica06]

Correct.

 

[smnherf]

Relying strictly on cow size to determine profitability is a simple criterion, but it isn't that simple. Yes a small cow will consume less, but you need to provide her a higher quality forage than a larger cow. Larger cows are biologically more efficient, meaning they need to consume more pounds of protein compared to a smaller cow, but the feed they consume can be lower in protein to achieve this as they have the ability to consume more total pounds of forage. So if you have a large amount of low quality feed, your larger cows will use this feedstuff more efficiently than a small cow. So it really depends on what your available feedstuff is.

After reading this a few times the only thing that I can think of is that your definition of cow efficiency in relation to cow size is totally different than mine. When you start talking about being biologically more efficient, that, to me, means that one can gain more weight off a pound of feed than another and claiming larger cows are more efficient biologically simply isnt true and I have growsafe data on a couple hundred head that shows it. It also doesnt show that simply a smaller animal is more efficient either and neither are these super high volumed cattle, at least from a F/C standpoint.

The real reason that large cows arent as efficient in terms of calf weaned per amount of feed consumed is that the heavier cow needs more energy in order to maintain that weight. Just like a big house takes more energy to heat than a smaller house.

 

[alexfarms]

Relying strictly on cow size to determine profitability is a simple criterion, but it isn't that simple. Yes a small cow will consume less, but you need to provide her a higher quality forage than a larger cow. Larger cows are biologically more efficient, meaning they need to consume more pounds of protein compared to a smaller cow, but the feed they consume can be lower in protein to achieve this as they have the ability to consume more total pounds of forage. So if you have a large amount of low quality feed, your larger cows will use this feedstuff more efficiently than a small cow. So it really depends on what your available feedstuff is.

After reading this a few times the only thing that I can think of is that your definition of cow efficiency in relation to cow size is totally different than mine. When you start talking about being biologically more efficient, that, to me, means that one can gain more weight off a pound of feed than another and claiming larger cows are more efficient biologically simply isnt true and I have growsafe data on a couple hundred head that shows it. It also doesnt show that simply a smaller animal is more efficient either and neither are these super high volumed cattle, at least from a F/C standpoint.
The real reason that large cows arent as efficient in terms of calf weaned per amount of feed consumed is that the heavier cow needs more energy in order to maintain that weight. Just like a big house takes more energy to heat than a smaller house.

Is your grow safe data on calves or mature cows? We're they being fed roughage or grain?

 

[djinwa]

I may be stating the obvious here, but let me throw this out for critique.

Besides frame and weight, what about body type, as in degree of muscling? I was once telling a guy his heavy muscled cow looked good, and he said, yep, but she sure eats a lot!

Since then I've learned that muscle is more metabolically active, so takes more energy to maintain. So seems to me you want a more feminine cow bred to a high muscled bull.

Now whenever I see someone post pictures of well muscled cows, I wonder how much they eat. I understand if they're being used to produce terminal, heavy muscled bulls.

So I've considered the ideal cow might be a longhorn/jersey cross, bred to a heavy muscled, high growth bull. Easy calving cow, that would put energy into the calf instead of into maintaining muscle mass. I guess the problem might be when the calf looks like the longhorn/jersey side instead of the bull. And getting replacements. Maybe need separate herds to produce cows vs bulls.

 

[Jessica06]

I may be stating the obvious here, but let me throw this out for critique.

Besides frame and weight, what about body type, as in degree of muscling? I was once telling a guy his heavy muscled cow looked good, and he said, yep, but she sure eats a lot!

Since then I've learned that muscle is more metabolically active, so takes more energy to maintain. So seems to me you want a more feminine cow bred to a high muscled bull.

Now whenever I see someone post pictures of well muscled cows, I wonder how much they eat. I understand if they're being used to produce terminal, heavy muscled bulls.

So I've considered the ideal cow might be a longhorn/jersey cross, bred to a heavy muscled, high growth bull. Easy calving cow, that would put energy into the calf instead of into maintaining muscle mass. I guess the problem might be when the calf looks like the longhorn/jersey side instead of the bull. And getting replacements. Maybe need separate herds to produce cows vs bulls.

If you just raise cows that are middle-of-the-road as far as muscling, you'll be able to go in just about any direction with them. You don't necessarily want light muscled, because the calves won't be worth very much. Neither do you want heavy muscled cows, because they DO need more groceries, and I think they have more fertility issues. Even registered cows used to produce bulls should still look like cows.

 

[smnherf]

Relying strictly on cow size to determine profitability is a simple criterion, but it isn't that simple. Yes a small cow will consume less, but you need to provide her a higher quality forage than a larger cow. Larger cows are biologically more efficient, meaning they need to consume more pounds of protein compared to a smaller cow, but the feed they consume can be lower in protein to achieve this as they have the ability to consume more total pounds of forage. So if you have a large amount of low quality feed, your larger cows will use this feedstuff more efficiently than a small cow. So it really depends on what your available feedstuff is.

After reading this a few times the only thing that I can think of is that your definition of cow efficiency in relation to cow size is totally different than mine. When you start talking about being biologically more efficient, that, to me, means that one can gain more weight off a pound of feed than another and claiming larger cows are more efficient biologically simply isnt true and I have growsafe data on a couple hundred head that shows it. It also doesnt show that simply a smaller animal is more efficient either and neither are these super high volumed cattle, at least from a F/C standpoint.
The real reason that large cows arent as efficient in terms of calf weaned per amount of feed consumed is that the heavier cow needs more energy in order to maintain that weight. Just like a big house takes more energy to heat than a smaller house.

Is your grow safe data on calves or mature cows? We're they being fed roughage or grain?

Its on growing calves fed a high roughage ration.

 

[Taurus]

Longhorn x jersey cross cows? Even half dairy cows can have udder problems and have too much milk, regardless of what other half breed is.

 

[Rowdy]

I may be stating the obvious here, but let me throw this out for critique.

Besides frame and weight, what about body type, as in degree of muscling? I was once telling a guy his heavy muscled cow looked good, and he said, yep, but she sure eats a lot!

Since then I've learned that muscle is more metabolically active, so takes more energy to maintain. So seems to me you want a more feminine cow bred to a high muscled bull.

Now whenever I see someone post pictures of well muscled cows, I wonder how much they eat. I understand if they're being used to produce terminal, heavy muscled bulls.

So I've considered the ideal cow might be a longhorn/jersey cross, bred to a heavy muscled, high growth bull. Easy calving cow, that would put energy into the calf instead of into maintaining muscle mass. I guess the problem might be when the calf looks like the longhorn/jersey side instead of the bull. And getting replacements. Maybe need separate herds to produce cows vs bulls.

There's some brahma/jersey cows posted on here awhile back. Keep on with your line of thought. Just maybe not as extreme as longhorn/jersey.

 

[Rowdy]

It's always preferable to inject growth from the sire. Your only limitation here with smaller cows is the birthweight they can handle. This is where a 1000lb heavy milking cow is ideal.

 

[Taurus]

I may be stating the obvious here, but let me throw this out for critique.

Besides frame and weight, what about body type, as in degree of muscling? I was once telling a guy his heavy muscled cow looked good, and he said, yep, but she sure eats a lot!

Since then I've learned that muscle is more metabolically active, so takes more energy to maintain. So seems to me you want a more feminine cow bred to a high muscled bull.

Now whenever I see someone post pictures of well muscled cows, I wonder how much they eat. I understand if they're being used to produce terminal, heavy muscled bulls.

So I've considered the ideal cow might be a longhorn/jersey cross, bred to a heavy muscled, high growth bull. Easy calving cow, that would put energy into the calf instead of into maintaining muscle mass. I guess the problem might be when the calf looks like the longhorn/jersey side instead of the bull. And getting replacements. Maybe need separate herds to produce cows vs bulls.

There's some brahma/jersey cows posted on here awhile back. Keep on with your line of thought. Just maybe not as extreme as longhorn/jersey.

And they still won't be an ideal cow for most part.

 

[Taurus]

It's always preferable to inject growth from the sire. Your only limitation here with smaller cows is the birthweight they can handle. This is where a 1000lb heavy milking cow is ideal.

Maybe for milking purposes but I would think that a heavy milking cow will fell apart if the environment isn't right for them and the last thing we need is udder problems and culling them earlier than cows with normal udders.

 

[BRG]

Their is more to it than just smaller cows. Yes they may eat less and you may be able to raise more pounds of beef per acre off a smaller cow. But the rest of the story isn't told in a smaller cow. We purchase for hire and feed quite a few calves out every year. Typically the smaller framed calves kill lighter and don't do as well in the feedlot. Their are more yield grade 4's in a smaller animal which is a huge discount as well. The smaller cattle need to be backgrounded longer because otherwise they get fat to early, they need to be grown out first. So with all of this, feeders will usually shy away from smaller framed cattle. I realize we can't raise cattle for the feeder only, but we need to keep them in consideration, otherwise you will not get paid like you could. The feeders will not buy the same calves next year if they don't do what the feeder needs them to do. Now I am not promoting big frame cattle here, but their is a happy medium we can fit in where it isn't to small or to big. In our environment, you can't keep one real small, as the grass is real powerful and it allows them to grow. Where is the South East US it seems to be just the opposite. The feeders like cattle that will kill around 1350 lbs, and if the genetics are right in the cattle, the feeder calves will get to that size, what ever size the cow is in her environment.

Also, when it comes to selling calves off the cow at weaning, yes a lighter weight calf usually brings more per pound than a heavy calf. But it is usually the second cut of a decent size frame group of calves that get the good premium. Not the ones that are to small framed. I have been told several times by buyers not to bid on so and so's calves as they are out of too small framed cows. Now if your entire goal is to produce more pounds of beef per acre, then the smaller cow is the way to go. But if you want to be profitable and if you want your customer, who is the feeder, to be profitable and to come back and leave a competitive bid on your calves year after year, then I think you should look at the bigger picture, not just from birth to weaning.

We have found that the 5 to 6 frame herd sire will produce the type cow and feeder calf that works for us and our customers the best and yet has a good demand from the feeders.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

I prefer the smaller cows more than the larger ones. The smaller cows seem to hold better condition, wean bigger calves, and last longer. Here is a photo of a 10 year old cow.

This is her with her bull calf from last year.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Their is more to it than just smaller cows. Yes they may eat less and you may be able to raise more pounds of beef per acre off a smaller cow. But the rest of the story isn't told in a smaller cow. We purchase for hire and feed quite a few calves out every year. Typically the smaller framed calves kill lighter and don't do as well in the feedlot. Their are more yield grade 4's in a smaller animal which is a huge discount as well. The smaller cattle need to be backgrounded longer because otherwise they get fat to early, they need to be grown out first. So with all of this, feeders will usually shy away from smaller framed cattle. I realize we can't raise cattle for the feeder only, but we need to keep them in consideration, otherwise you will not get paid like you could. The feeders will not buy the same calves next year if they don't do what the feeder needs them to do. Now I am not promoting big frame cattle here, but their is a happy medium we can fit in where it isn't to small or to big. In our environment, you can't keep one real small, as the grass is real powerful and it allows them to grow. Where is the South East US it seems to be just the opposite. The feeders like cattle that will kill around 1350 lbs, and if the genetics are right in the cattle, the feeder calves will get to that size, what ever size the cow is in her environment.

Also, when it comes to selling calves off the cow at weaning, yes a lighter weight calf usually brings more per pound than a heavy calf. But it is usually the second cut of a decent size frame group of calves that get the good premium. Not the ones that are to small framed. I have been told several times by buyers not to bid on so and so's calves as they are out of too small framed cows. Now if your entire goal is to produce more pounds of beef per acre, then the smaller cow is the way to go. But if you want to be profitable and if you want your customer, who is the feeder, to be profitable and to come back and leave a competitive bid on your calves year after year, then I think you should look at the bigger picture, not just from birth to weaning.

We have found that the 5 to 6 frame herd sire will produce the type cow and feeder calf that works for us and our customers the best and yet has a good demand from the feeders.

good post.....

 

[Rowdy]

It's always preferable to inject growth from the sire. Your only limitation here with smaller cows is the birthweight they can handle. This is where a 1000lb heavy milking cow is ideal.

Maybe for milking purposes but I would think that a heavy milking cow will fell apart if the environment isn't right for them and the last thing we need is udder problems and culling them earlier than cows with normal udders.

That's bc you've never been exposed to a fat heavy milking 1000lb cow. Your limited awareness only allows you to envision a big Holstein type cow. Udder suspension is the key here. Just because they are heavier millers doesn't mean they have weak udders.

 

[Jessica06]

It's always preferable to inject growth from the sire. Your only limitation here with smaller cows is the birthweight they can handle. This is where a 1000lb heavy milking cow is ideal.

Maybe for milking purposes but I would think that a heavy milking cow will fell apart if the environment isn't right for them and the last thing we need is udder problems and culling them earlier than cows with normal udders.

That's bc you've never been exposed to a fat heavy milking 1000lb cow. Your limited awareness only allows you to envision a big Holstein type cow. Udder suspension is the key here. Just because they are heavier millers doesn't mean they have weak udders.

To each his own, but on a real-world commercial cow-calf operation with limited resources, those words don't really go together. I'll take a tight udder with adequate milk production any day. We are talking about profitable, feeder calf producing commercial cows here! Our heavy milkers were the first to go. Why? They didn't breed back. I think Taurus' observation is pretty generally accurate. There are supercows in every breed, but they aren't typical. We have 1 cow that fits that description perfectly. Out of 150 cows. As in everything, moderation is key! Extremes will get you in trouble.

 

[BC]

Their is more to it than just smaller cows. Yes they may eat less and you may be able to raise more pounds of beef per acre off a smaller cow. But the rest of the story isn't told in a smaller cow. We purchase for hire and feed quite a few calves out every year. Typically the smaller framed calves kill lighter and don't do as well in the feedlot. Their are more yield grade 4's in a smaller animal which is a huge discount as well. The smaller cattle need to be backgrounded longer because otherwise they get fat to early, they need to be grown out first. So with all of this, feeders will usually shy away from smaller framed cattle. I realize we can't raise cattle for the feeder only, but we need to keep them in consideration, otherwise you will not get paid like you could. The feeders will not buy the same calves next year if they don't do what the feeder needs them to do. Now I am not promoting big frame cattle here, but their is a happy medium we can fit in where it isn't to small or to big. In our environment, you can't keep one real small, as the grass is real powerful and it allows them to grow. Where is the South East US it seems to be just the opposite. The feeders like cattle that will kill around 1350 lbs, and if the genetics are right in the cattle, the feeder calves will get to that size, what ever size the cow is in her environment.

Also, when it comes to selling calves off the cow at weaning, yes a lighter weight calf usually brings more per pound than a heavy calf. But it is usually the second cut of a decent size frame group of calves that get the good premium. Not the ones that are to small framed. I have been told several times by buyers not to bid on so and so's calves as they are out of too small framed cows. Now if your entire goal is to produce more pounds of beef per acre, then the smaller cow is the way to go. But if you want to be profitable and if you want your customer, who is the feeder, to be profitable and to come back and leave a competitive bid on your calves year after year, then I think you should look at the bigger picture, not just from birth to weaning.

We have found that the 5 to 6 frame herd sire will produce the type cow and feeder calf that works for us and our customers the best and yet has a good demand from the feeders.

Great post!! You hit the nail on the head.

 

[Taurus]

That's bc you've never been exposed to a fat heavy milking 1000lb cow. Your limited awareness only allows you to envision a big Holstein type cow. Udder suspension is the key here. Just because they are heavier millers doesn't mean they have weak udders.

To each his own, but on a real-world commercial cow-calf operation with limited resources, those words don't really go together. I'll take a tight udder with adequate milk production any day. We are talking about profitable, feeder calf producing commercial cows here! Our heavy milkers were the first to go. Why? They didn't breed back. I think Taurus' observation is pretty generally accurate. There are supercows in every breed, but they aren't typical. We have 1 cow that fits that description perfectly. Out of 150 cows. As in everything, moderation is key! Extremes will get you in trouble.

Like I said, a cow has to match to the environment that she is going into. I had some heavy milkers here, they weaned big calves but their stay at the place is short when compared to the cows with tight udders. And it's tough to keep heavy milkers stay in good condition and that goes for their calves at first days of the life.

 

[Rowdy]

Again, the heavy milkers you're referring to weren't fat 1000lb cows. The tye im proposing is a 3-4 frame Jersey/lowline,angus,hereford type cross. This animal is extremely easy fleshing. She is a heavy milker. She doesn't have a saggy slopy udder. She has an excellent tight udder- the difference being in the amount of forward volume she carries. It's imperative she is bred to a high growth terminal bull whose offspring have the growth potential to utilize her milking ability.