More cows vs. Big cows

[Red Bull Breeder]

Watch out there redcows. That's a little deep for some to grasp. There is a lot more to efficient cows than size.

 

[WarEagle73]

Relying strictly on cow size to determine profitability is a simple criterion, but it isn't that simple. Yes a small cow will consume less, but you need to provide her a higher quality forage than a larger cow. Larger cows are biologically more efficient, meaning they need to consume more pounds of protein compared to a smaller cow, but the feed they consume can be lower in protein to achieve this as they have the ability to consume more total pounds of forage. So if you have a large amount of low quality feed, your larger cows will use this feedstuff more efficiently than a small cow. So it really depends on what your available feedstuff is.

If you look at the Beef NRC Tables, that is actually the inverse of what they indicate.

For example:
1000 lb. Cow 2 months post calving weaning a 500lb calf needs a diet with 60.9% TDN and 11.2% CP
1200 lb. Cow 2 months post calving weaning a 600lb calf needs a diet with 63.2% TDN and 12.2% CP
On top of that, the larger cow requires an additional 5.6 lb DM/day.

Now I realize that these are tables and averages, but my point is that generalities about size and weight are averages at best. In my limited experience, cattle that have above average capacity for their frame score tend to be more efficient for the same reasons you listed (added volume for more feed). I am becoming less a believer in smaller cows and more a believer in cows that work in your environment. If a cow can wean over 50% of her body weight, get bred back early in the season and calve unassisted (as long as I don't screw any of that up) she can stay as long as she maintains that on grass and hay with little to no supplements.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

tdarden3k-
You will not find one word in my post where I advocated that anyone raise "Corriente-sized cattle - OR that I inferred that anyone was an idiot. UNinformed, yes. But not idiots. And I certainly am not recommending that we lurch back into "Belt-Buckle" pony-type cattle. I had enough of that type of inefficient seedstock - personally - 65 years ago! Raise the type of cattle which pleases you and be satisfied with the lost income which will probably occur.

I hope that you can enjoy your hobby.

DOC HARRIS

 

[KNERSIE]

Relying strictly on cow size to determine profitability is a simple criterion, but it isn't that simple. Yes a small cow will consume less, but you need to provide her a higher quality forage than a larger cow. Larger cows are biologically more efficient, meaning they need to consume more pounds of protein compared to a smaller cow, but the feed they consume can be lower in protein to achieve this as they have the ability to consume more total pounds of forage. So if you have a large amount of low quality feed, your larger cows will use this feedstuff more efficiently than a small cow. So it really depends on what your available feedstuff is.

While I agree there is more to it than simply size, you've got the cat by the tail on this one... or you've never farmed in an area with low quality forage.

 

[Rowdy]

Relying strictly on cow size to determine profitability is a simple criterion, but it isn't that simple. Yes a small cow will consume less, but you need to provide her a higher quality forage than a larger cow. Larger cows are biologically more efficient, meaning they need to consume more pounds of protein compared to a smaller cow, but the feed they consume can be lower in protein to achieve this as they have the ability to consume more total pounds of forage. So if you have a large amount of low quality feed, your larger cows will use this feedstuff more efficiently than a small cow. So it really depends on what your available feedstuff is.

Frame score and capacity aren't the same. Generally speaking, that's why people are opposed to the larger frame cows- bc they tend to be more flat sided. Larger cows do not have the ability to consume more- as a % of their total weight- than smaller framed cows. More total lbs, yes. A larger % , no.

 

[Rowdy]

Ill take a 1400lb frame 4 over a 1400lb frame 6 every day of the week. Both the same bcs too.

 

[Jessica06]

I think capacity and rumen size depends a lot on how they are developed, too. If you just put them in with a feed bunk, their rumen is not going to get very big. However, develop them on grass or hay with a limited amount of supplement, and they will be a lot bigger middled. They won't all look as good, but you will be able to cull the ones that don't perform. That's what we did with this last group, and so far we are a LOT happier with them. So, decide what frame size/mature weight you like and develop them accordingly. Our smaller cows are typically our fleshier, better doing ones.

I've heard it said many times that you can move cattle north and west, but not south and east. Big rumens to better grass, vs. smaller rumens to worse grass. When we moved our cattle here from the Hill Country, we thought we could just throw them out on all of this lush, awesome grass and they would grow like weeds. The calves did NOT grow. At all.

 

[KNERSIE]

To have rumen capacity you need spring of rib, length of rib, heart girth, depth of flank and width from end to end and from top to bottom. That is bred in, not fed in.

 

[TexasBred]

Relying strictly on cow size to determine profitability is a simple criterion, but it isn't that simple. Yes a small cow will consume less, but you need to provide her a higher quality forage than a larger cow. Larger cows are biologically more efficient, meaning they need to consume more pounds of protein compared to a smaller cow, but the feed they consume can be lower in protein to achieve this as they have the ability to consume more total pounds of forage. So if you have a large amount of low quality feed, your larger cows will use this feedstuff more efficiently than a small cow. So it really depends on what your available feedstuff is.

I don't agree with this but will say that the larger cow typically has the capacity to at least consume more of the feedstuffs and thus have that added nutrition available for her use. To what degree it is utilized will depend on the individual cow.

 

[Rowdy]

To have rumen capacity you need spring of rib, length of rib, heart girth, depth of flank and width from end to end and from top to bottom. That is bred in, not fed in.

Yup

 

[Jessica06]

To have rumen capacity you need spring of rib, length of rib, heart girth, depth of flank and width from end to end and from top to bottom. That is bred in, not fed in.

I respectfully disagree. That is part of it, but not all.

"Development of rumen capacity is as important as development of frame and skeletal size in contributing to long- term potential productivity of the dairy animal. The practice of limit-feeding high-energy diets to developing heifers has become more common during periods when the cost of grain is low relative to the cost of forages, especially when considered on the basis of cost per unit of energy. Although feeding a high-concentrate diet can increase rate of gain and feed efficiency, research has shown that feeding a diet higher in forage increases the size and capacity of the rumen relative to the size of the animal (table 1) Hence, even when feeding a forage-based diet does not give the lowest cost of gain, the returns to developing heifers with a forage-based diet will be provided in the long-term productivity of the animal."

This, from the Angus Journal.

"The most recent research challenges the old rule of thumb," Funston states. "Heifers don't have to be developed to 65% of mature weight. We've gone as low as 50% as a target, and still achieved 90% pregnancy rates." Funston says that can be accomplished on all-forage diets, or predominately forage diets with some supplementation, as long as growing heifers' basic nutritional requirements are met. And, he says, there may be some advantage to exposing heifers early on to low-quality forage. "For one thing, they learn how to eat that kind of forage. It also may help young females develop more [rumen] capacity," Funston explains. "When you develop heifers on a high-concentrate diet, you're feeding them something they probably won't get as a cow." Funston says nutrition should be adequate, but pampering heifers does nothing to improve their adaptability.
"It's better to challenge young females and select those that really are adaptable to your environment. You might have to keep a few extra [replacement heifer candidates] so you can apply more selection pressure," Funston offers. "Ultimately, you should have more heifers that will breed back for a second calf and more cows that stay in the herd longer."

 

[TexasBred]

"Development of rumen capacity is as important as development of frame and skeletal size in contributing to long- term potential productivity of the dairy animal. The practice of limit-feeding high-energy diets to developing heifers has become more common during periods when the cost of grain is low relative to the cost of forages, especially when considered on the basis of cost per unit of energy. Although feeding a high-concentrate diet can increase rate of gain and feed efficiency, research has shown that feeding a diet higher in forage increases the size and capacity of the rumen relative to the size of the animal (table 1) Hence, even when feeding a forage-based diet does not give the lowest cost of gain, the returns to developing heifers with a forage-based diet will be provided in the long-term productivity of the animal."

Absolutely and every good dairyman knows this. Dairy cattle are expected to consume more than double the dry matter every day of a beef cow and a minimum of 50% of that should be and most like will be bulky forages.

This, from the Angus Journal.

"The most recent research challenges the old rule of thumb," Funston states. "Heifers don't have to be developed to 65% of mature weight. We've gone as low as 50% as a target, and still achieved 90% pregnancy rates." Funston says that can be accomplished on all-forage diets, or predominately forage diets with some supplementation, as long as growing heifers' basic nutritional requirements are met. And, he says, there may be some advantage to exposing heifers early on to low-quality forage. "For one thing, they learn how to eat that kind of forage. It also may help young females develop more [rumen] capacity," Funston explains. "When you develop heifers on a high-concentrate diet, you're feeding them something they probably won't get as a cow." Funston says nutrition should be adequate, but pampering heifers does nothing to improve their adaptability.
"It's better to challenge young females and select those that really are adaptable to your environment. You might have to keep a few extra [replacement heifer candidates] so you can apply more selection pressure," Funston offers. "Ultimately, you should have more heifers that will breed back for a second calf and more cows that stay in the herd longer."

Three classification of cattle need energy dense concentrate diets....lactating dairy catte, those raised as show animals and those raised for slaughter and even these need a certain level of roughage in the diet. All others should be raised on the feedstuffs that they will live on the rest of their life.

 

[KNERSIE]

I never argued about rumen development, but since you've mentioned it you can also stretch a rumen with water!

The fact of the matter is, unless a bovine have the genetic ability to have lots of capacity, no amount of roughage will ever make a pencil gutted animal a deep, high volume cow, easy keeping cow.

 

[Jessica06]

The fact of the matter is, unless a bovine have the genetic ability to have lots of capacity, no amount of roughage will ever make a pencil gutted animal a deep, high volume cow, easy keeping cow.

Agreed!

 

[dun]

One thing that is ignored about the more smaller cows mantra, if you add 25& more cows you've increased the work by 50%. That is if you manage them at all and just don;t turn them out to shift for themselves.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

id like to take 2 identical whitetail fawns , take one to montana, and keep one here.. then see them as yearlings... and vice versa...

 

[M.Magis]

id like to take 2 identical whitetail fawns , take one to montana, and keep one here.. then see them as yearlings... and vice versa...

I think it's hard to say what you'd see, since like cattle, there are extremes and variations with individuals within a sub species of whitetails. In theory, the one from Montana and moved to the south should still be larger at a year old since the Dakota subspecies is larger, and different in body type, than the Gulf Coast or southeastern sub species. Would be an interesting experiment, and maybe it's already been done.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

id like to take 2 identical whitetail fawns , take one to montana, and keep one here.. then see them as yearlings... and vice versa...

I think it's hard to say what you'd see, since like cattle, there are extremes and variations with individuals within a sub species of whitetails. In theory, the one from Montana and moved to the south should still be larger at a year old since the Dakota subspecies is larger, and different in body type, than the Gulf Coast or southeastern sub species. Would be an interesting experiment, and maybe it's already been done.

with the technology bigger deer are being seen and killed here now...some use dewormer blocks ... minerals. custom seed for food plots..

 

[Dega Moo]

Just wondering how most folks are actually weighting your cows? Do you have a main working area set up with scales or do you have a portable scale you take to pastures? When you're talking about weaning a percentage of the cow, are you using an adjusted 205 day wean weight?

 

[Jessica06]

Just wondering how most folks are actually weighting your cows? Do you have a main working area set up with scales or do you have a portable scale you take to pastures? When you're talking about weaning a percentage of the cow, are you using an adjusted 205 day wean weight?

We picked up our squeeze chute with the tractor and put a set of Tru Test load bars under it, bolted onto brackets that are welded to the chute, and then bolted into the slab we poured. Lot of work, but worth it. A friend had a chute sized portable cage built with scales under it..pretty nifty.

I think if you use a 205 day weight, it will tell you how your genetics are doing, but that's about it. If they aren't X% AT weaning, they are 1) poor milkers, 2) late calving, or 3) bred to bulls lacking growth. Knowing what their calves SHOULD have weighed in 60 days isn't going to make your check any bigger.