Mineral question...

[Bright Raven]

I can use any mineral I want to and have used Vitaferm extensively, but I think this mineral is superior to Vitaferm and that is why I switched out everything in all of my mineral feeders. I've been using this for almost a year now. It's not cheap, but really good things rarely are. Compare labels.

Not knocking Vitaferm's game but they have excellent marketing campaigns, and people tend to go for what looks good. In this month's Angus Journal, they have Charlie Boyd pitching Vitaferm, and most people think "if it's good enough for Boyd's it's good enough for me".

I don't think Vitaferm is smoke and mirrors, but I do think this mineral is better overall

[image]276[/image]

especially if you want to control flies, which can have a highly detrimental effect on your herd.

You will have to have the product above special ordered if you want the Rabon for fly control.

I have reservations. First, I am not a fan of rumensin. Why, you ask? It changes the natural fermentation process in the rumen. I am a believer in evolution. If bovines have evolved their rumen process over millions of years of natural selection, I am too much of a purist to advocate changing it.

Second, all the VitaFerm mineral compounds come in a BIOAVAILABILE form.

Third, I prefer to do fly control as a separate practice.

I much prefer VitaFerm.

 

[TNRiver]

Thanks for all the discussion guys. I feel like the mineral we use now is a good mineral, I was more just wondering if the hype about VitaFerm was real... I appreciate the replies. Do you all that feed a loose mineral year round do you supplement any trace minerals in any form? Like Multimin or anything?

 

[Bright Raven]

Thanks for all the discussion guys. I feel like the mineral we use now is a good mineral, I was more just wondering if the hype about VitaFerm was real... I appreciate the replies. Do you all that feed a loose mineral year round do you supplement any trace minerals in any form? Like Multimin or anything?

I do not supplement. My calves are not given multimin and they are very healthy and vigorous at birth.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I can use any mineral I want to and have used Vitaferm extensively, but I think this mineral is superior to Vitaferm and that is why I switched out everything in all of my mineral feeders. I've been using this for almost a year now. It's not cheap, but really good things rarely are. Compare labels.

Not knocking Vitaferm's game but they have excellent marketing campaigns, and people tend to go for what looks good. In this month's Angus Journal, they have Charlie Boyd pitching Vitaferm, and most people think "if it's good enough for Boyd's it's good enough for me".

I don't think Vitaferm is smoke and mirrors, but I do think this mineral is better overall

[image]276[/image]

especially if you want to control flies, which can have a highly detrimental effect on your herd.

You will have to have the product above special ordered if you want the Rabon for fly control.

I have reservations. First, I am not a fan of rumensin. Why, you ask? It changes the natural fermentation process in the rumen. I am a believer in evolution. If bovines have evolved their rumen process over millions of years of natural selection, I am too much of a purist to advocate changing it.

Second, all the VitaFerm mineral compounds come in a BIOAVAILABILE form.

Third, I prefer to do fly control as a separate practice.

I much prefer VitaFerm.

Ron, the points you make are valid, but I've never been a purist with our cattle.

They are vaccinated, they are given Multimin, Eprinex or Dectomax, or Ivermectin, I alternate. They eat grain with prebiotic and probiotics. They are a long ways from how cattle once were, in say the 15th century for example.

I've read about Rumensin and I don't see the downsides as you do, in fact I think the positives greatly outweigh the negatives

https://www.elanco.us/products-services/beef/rumensin

As for our calves, they get 1 ml of Multimin and they get 20 cc's of Gro Tec's Ag bac gel. The calves which are already healthy, go beast mode within about 15-20 minutes and nurse vigorously. That's my system and it works well. I'm definitely not telling people this is mandatory for healthy calves, you can skip both and have healthy calves.

 

[Luckiamute]

Rather than just simply feeding a mineral, might suggest doing some random mineral testing on your herd to see what, if anything, they might be deficient in and basing your mineral program on the results of the mineral testing. Your vet can help do this. If you know of a cow that may have had conception issues in the past, she, for example, would make a good candidate for testing. Try and pick an assortment of animals that represent your herd -- old, young, highly fertile, ones with low fertility rates, cows that might be a tad fat, cows that might be a tad thin, etc. You'll learn a lot about your herd, your feed, etc. I know doing mineral testing and making the needed adjustments made a world of difference in my herd, especially when it came to conception rates.

 

[Bright Raven]

I can use any mineral I want to and have used Vitaferm extensively, but I think this mineral is superior to Vitaferm and that is why I switched out everything in all of my mineral feeders. I've been using this for almost a year now. It's not cheap, but really good things rarely are. Compare labels.

Not knocking Vitaferm's game but they have excellent marketing campaigns, and people tend to go for what looks good. In this month's Angus Journal, they have Charlie Boyd pitching Vitaferm, and most people think "if it's good enough for Boyd's it's good enough for me".

I don't think Vitaferm is smoke and mirrors, but I do think this mineral is better overall

[image]276[/image]

especially if you want to control flies, which can have a highly detrimental effect on your herd.

You will have to have the product above special ordered if you want the Rabon for fly control.

I have reservations. First, I am not a fan of rumensin. Why, you ask? It changes the natural fermentation process in the rumen. I am a believer in evolution. If bovines have evolved their rumen process over millions of years of natural selection, I am too much of a purist to advocate changing it.

Second, all the VitaFerm mineral compounds come in a BIOAVAILABILE form.

Third, I prefer to do fly control as a separate practice.

I much prefer VitaFerm.

Ron, the points you make are valid, but I've never been a purist with our cattle.

They are vaccinated, they are given Multimin, Eprinex or Dectomax, or Ivermectin, I alternate. They eat grain with prebiotic and probiotics. They are a long ways from how cattle once were, in say the 15th century for example.

I've read about Rumensin and I don't see the downsides as you do, in fact I think the positives greatly outweigh the negatives

https://www.elanco.us/products-services/beef/rumensin

As for our calves, they get 1 ml of Multimin and they get 20 cc's of Gro Tec's Ag bac gel. The calves which are already healthy, go beast mode within about 15-20 minutes and nurse vigorously. That's my system and it works well. I'm definitely not telling people this is mandatory for healthy calves, you can skip both and have healthy calves.

I had previously read that article on rumensin. I think where other means don't work well, it certainly has benefits as a coccidiostat. But keep in mind that it has the properties of an "antibiotic" by acting as an ionophore. In simple terms, it creates a shift in ion transfer across the cell's membrane. It has its place but not here, I simply don't need it.

 

[Dixie2542]

I've never heard of feeding HiMag year around either but again not sure where u are located in TN. A couple of tips that I've learned over time. Bright Raven is spot on about bioavailability. When u look at the tag look to see if it's the right type added or just lower quality minerals that will just pass through the cow. Vitafirm Concept aid 8s is a good one to use. Second I'm not sure which coop you are purchasing from, but here's a tip i learned over time. Not all coops are created equal on pricing. If you have several around you with 30 or so mins I'd call around and get quotes first. It's an eye opening experience on prices differences..

 

[TexasBred]

I can use any mineral I want to and have used Vitaferm extensively, but I think this mineral is superior to Vitaferm and that is why I switched out everything in all of my mineral feeders. I've been using this for almost a year now. It's not cheap, but really good things rarely are. Compare labels.

Not knocking Vitaferm's game but they have excellent marketing campaigns, and people tend to go for what looks good. In this month's Angus Journal, they have Charlie Boyd pitching Vitaferm, and most people think "if it's good enough for Boyd's it's good enough for me".

I don't think Vitaferm is smoke and mirrors, but I do think this mineral is better overall

[image]276[/image]

especially if you want to control flies, which can have a highly detrimental effect on your herd.

You will have to have the product above special ordered if you want the Rabon for fly control.

With all due respect I'll disagree with you. This is really a pretty average mineral with a lot of ingredients listed that are little more than "window dressing" especially all the various yeast strains.As for the Vitaferm mineral a portion of the micro minerals are in the form of proteinates which is an improvement over oxides and sulfates but only a % of them and you'll just have to guess "how much". Oxides and sulfates are also listed as a source of these same minerals. Don't know that I'd pay $40 for a bag of the Vitaferm mineral and $30 would be too much for the other. (Just my opinion)

 

[CattleMan1920]

I can use any mineral I want to and have used Vitaferm extensively, but I think this mineral is superior to Vitaferm and that is why I switched out everything in all of my mineral feeders. I've been using this for almost a year now. It's not cheap, but really good things rarely are. Compare labels.

Not knocking Vitaferm's game but they have excellent marketing campaigns, and people tend to go for what looks good. In this month's Angus Journal, they have Charlie Boyd pitching Vitaferm, and most people think "if it's good enough for Boyd's it's good enough for me".

I don't think Vitaferm is smoke and mirrors, but I do think this mineral is better overall

[image]276[/image]

especially if you want to control flies, which can have a highly detrimental effect on your herd.

You will have to have the product above special ordered if you want the Rabon for fly control.

With all due respect I'll disagree with you. This is really a pretty average mineral with a lot of ingredients listed that are little more than "window dressing" especially all the various yeast strains.As for the Vitaferm mineral a portion of the micro minerals are in the form of proteinates which is an improvement over oxides and sulfates but only a % of them and you'll just have to guess "how much". Oxides and sulfates are also listed as a source of these same minerals. Don't know that I'd pay $40 for a bag of the Vitaferm mineral and $30 would be too much for the other. (Just my opinion)

I used Vitaferm for several years. Concept Aid Mag/S in winter and Heat in the summer.

I switched to Gro Tec Fescue 7 medicated about a year ago. A successful commercial operator finally convinced me to give the other a try.

Since then I have had better fertility rates. Maybe it's a fluke, maybe I'm imagining things, but nothing about my operation went in reverse.

A secondary reason why I don't use Vitaferm is that there is only one dealer in my area and I don't care to give them my business, and Vitaferm said they could only sell me a pallet with a significant drop shipping fee. I don't need that much mineral and won't pay that much to have it shipped.

 

[gcreekrch]

We test our feed most every year and have built a mineral for our ranch. Feed mill will custom mix mineral in 1.5 ton batches for customers.
I would suggest like minded operators go in together with individual feed samples from a small area and have a custom mix made.
Our custom mix is actually cheaper than the "generic" mineral for the area and many times the requirements change in 30 to 50 to 100 miles.

 

[cjmc]

I can use any mineral I want to and have used Vitaferm extensively, but I think this mineral is superior to Vitaferm and that is why I switched out everything in all of my mineral feeders. I've been using this for almost a year now. It's not cheap, but really good things rarely are. Compare labels.

Not knocking Vitaferm's game but they have excellent marketing campaigns, and people tend to go for what looks good. In this month's Angus Journal, they have Charlie Boyd pitching Vitaferm, and most people think "if it's good enough for Boyd's it's good enough for me".

I don't think Vitaferm is smoke and mirrors, but I do think this mineral is better overall

[image]276[/image]

especially if you want to control flies, which can have a highly detrimental effect on your herd.

You will have to have the product above special ordered if you want the Rabon for fly control.

I have reservations. First, I am not a fan of rumensin. Why, you ask? It changes the natural fermentation process in the rumen. I am a believer in evolution. If bovines have evolved their rumen process over millions of years of natural selection, I am too much of a purist to advocate changing it.

Second, all the VitaFerm mineral compounds come in a BIOAVAILABILE form.

Third, I prefer to do fly control as a separate practice.

I much prefer VitaFerm.

Amaferm changes the rumen as well.... no not in the same way as rumensin. but it increases fungal branching. Rumensin reduces gram positive bacteria. Both are different than "normal"

Vitaferm uses sulfates as does this mineral... This mineral uses "polysaccharides complexes" while vitaferm uses a Proteinate, both of those are an organic.... So why is the vitaFerm more bioavailable?

 

[Bright Raven]

I can use any mineral I want to and have used Vitaferm extensively, but I think this mineral is superior to Vitaferm and that is why I switched out everything in all of my mineral feeders. I've been using this for almost a year now. It's not cheap, but really good things rarely are. Compare labels.

Not knocking Vitaferm's game but they have excellent marketing campaigns, and people tend to go for what looks good. In this month's Angus Journal, they have Charlie Boyd pitching Vitaferm, and most people think "if it's good enough for Boyd's it's good enough for me".

I don't think Vitaferm is smoke and mirrors, but I do think this mineral is better overall

[image]276[/image]

especially if you want to control flies, which can have a highly detrimental effect on your herd.

You will have to have the product above special ordered if you want the Rabon for fly control.

I have reservations. First, I am not a fan of rumensin. Why, you ask? It changes the natural fermentation process in the rumen. I am a believer in evolution. If bovines have evolved their rumen process over millions of years of natural selection, I am too much of a purist to advocate changing it.

Second, all the VitaFerm mineral compounds come in a BIOAVAILABILE form.

Third, I prefer to do fly control as a separate practice.

I much prefer VitaFerm.

Amaferm changes the rumen as well.... no not in the same way as rumensin. but it increases fungal branching. Rumensin reduces gram positive bacteria. Both are different than "normal"

Vitaferm uses sulfates as does this mineral... This mineral uses "polysaccharides complexes" while vitaferm uses a Proteinate, both of those are an organic.... So why is the vitaFerm more bioavailable?

The proteinates (chelation process) and polysaccharides are both BIOAVAILABILE. Both are organic compounds that promote the biosorbtion of inorganic elements. Both of these are minerals that are formulated to be biosorbed. My statement was that VitaFerm is bioavailable not that one was more or less bioavailable; both of these minerals are more bioavailable than many, many other minerals on the market.

Rumensin acts to some extent as a "bacteriostat". Being an ionophore, it reduces (does not totally kill) particularly gram positive bacteria. Not all gram positive bacteria are pathogens and some gram negative bacteria are pathogens. Unless, I had a need to control coccidia, I don't want rumensin in my mineral or feed. The flora and fauna of a mammal's gut reaches a natural balance without being influenced by another chemical. Amaferm does fit the same bill, but not as much of an influence on the microbe balance.

Both minerals are excellent. Both are BIOAVAILABILE. They both not only employ sulfates but also employ phosphates, oxides, carbonates, etc.

I prefer the chelated compounds (proteinates) in VitaFerm. Chelation of a soluble salt with amino acids and/or partially hydrolyzed protein makes inorganic elements easily biosorbed. This applies to the Zinc, Copper and Manganese in VitaFerm. Very important to fertility. I have a small herd so the sample size is small but I get 100% breed back in 60 days post partum. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! I am 100 % AI, so the significance is important!

 

[CattleMan1920]

I will be speaking with the owner of Gro Tec later this afternoon about everything that was discussed on this very interesting thread. From what I know, he once worked at Vitaferm.

The product I'm using above is being used heavily in some very large herds (1000+ head) nationwide, so it will be informative to hear what he has to say when it's broken down at this level.

Ron you are like having a resident chemist and biologist on hand here at CT. LOL!

 

[Bright Raven]

I will be speaking with the owner of Gro Tec later this afternoon about everything that was discussed on this very interesting thread. From what I know, he once worked at Vitaferm.

The product I'm using above is being used heavily in some very large herds (1000+ head) nationwide, so it will be informative to hear what he has to say when it's broken down at this level.

Ron you are like having a resident chemist and biologist on hand here at CT. LOL!

Thanks.
It is not unlike what I did my whole life. Degrees in Biology and Geology. I have a MS in biology. I took lots of chemistry - Organic Chemistry I and II. I had courses in everything from Medical Entomology to Animal Physiology to Parasitology and lots in between. Then, I spent 33 years as a US Civil Servant involved in a diverse range of technical functions. Heavy metals, sarin gas, mustard gas, hydrocarbons, and a host of other toxic substances.

Edited to add: rumensin is a useful product. My point is - Do I need it? If you really wanted to get down to the bottom of the issue, you would need to do liver biopsies of a cross section of your herd to know exactly what your mineral needs are. Most of us are not going to do that.

 

[TNRiver]

I will be speaking with the owner of Gro Tec later this afternoon about everything that was discussed on this very interesting thread. From what I know, he once worked at Vitaferm.

The product I'm using above is being used heavily in some very large herds (1000+ head) nationwide, so it will be informative to hear what he has to say when it's broken down at this level.

Ron you are like having a resident chemist and biologist on hand here at CT. LOL!

I agree with Branded, this thread has become very interesting. Far more information than I was expecting. Very thought provoking. Thanks for the replies and feedback. I will add another tidbit for thought....

Do you think it is more beneficial to switch the formula of mineral you feed throughout the year (spring green up, conception, hay feeding) or is it better to find the best "all around" mineral and feed it consistently throughout the year so that the levels of all the different minerals stay "leveled out" and there are no peaks and valleys???

 

[Bright Raven]

I will be speaking with the owner of Gro Tec later this afternoon about everything that was discussed on this very interesting thread. From what I know, he once worked at Vitaferm.

The product I'm using above is being used heavily in some very large herds (1000+ head) nationwide, so it will be informative to hear what he has to say when it's broken down at this level.

Ron you are like having a resident chemist and biologist on hand here at CT. LOL!

I agree with Branded, this thread has become very interesting. Far more information than I was expecting. Very thought provoking. Thanks for the replies and feedback. I will add another tidbit for thought....

Do you think it is more beneficial to switch the formula of mineral you feed throughout the year (spring green up, conception, hay feeding) or is it better to find the best "all around" mineral and feed it consistently throughout the year so that the levels of all the different minerals stay "leveled out" and there are no peaks and valleys???

I think you can do it either way. Especially if you use fly control in your mineral. I switch to VitaFerm Heat in the summer months.

VitaFerm Heat has the following:

The Amaferm Advantage:
Amaferm is a precision-based prebiotic that is research-proven to combat heat stress. It also helps stimulate appetite, increase feed digestibility and maximize nutrient absorption.

Capsaicin:
Capsaicin keeps cattle eating smaller meals throughout the day while also acting as a vasodilator to mitigate the effects of endophyte positive fescue. Also proven to increase water intake.

Garlic:
Garlic acts as a natural insect repellent as the smell repels insects through breath and skin excretion.

 

[TNRiver]

I never feed Fly Control in my minerals. I am in kind of a unique situation, there are no other cattle within 5 miles of my herd, so the cattle rubs and spray on fly spray i use are very effective... i alternate the spray i use twice a year to prevent the development of resistance and because there are no other cattle close by the fly population is pretty easily controlled... To be honest I am not very familiar with Amaferm, perhaps I should research it more. I have used Rumensin in the past, but I ultimately decided I was not seeing enough benefit to support the added cost.

 

[Bright Raven]

I never feed Fly Control in my minerals. I am in kind of a unique situation, there are no other cattle within 5 miles of my herd, so the cattle rubs and spray on fly spray i use are very effective... i alternate the spray i use twice a year to prevent the development of resistance and because there are no other cattle close by the fly population is pretty easily controlled... To be honest I am not very familiar with Amaferm, perhaps I should research it more. I have used Rumensin in the past, but I ultimately decided I was not seeing enough benefit to support the added cost.

I want to be clear. I am not disparaging Rumensin in my comments above. It has some important benefits in increasing the efficiency of feed. My position is that I don't it, or at least I don't think I do. My cows are well conditioned, some say over-conditioned. Therefore, I am not looking for a mineral that contains it. I want a mineral that is biosorbed (bioavailable), VitaFerm meets my needs.

 

[TNRiver]

I totally understand, I never thought you were "bashing" Rumensin, I hope you didn't take it that way. I was just saying that was the only thing mentioned here I have had experience with. Also, when I used Rumensin, it was mixed into our feed not our mineral. I have never used a "medicated" mineral and I don't use any medicated feed anymore either.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Don't forget that I'm feeding my mineral in conjunction with a high performance grain mix as well.

The grain I feed our herd, which is now down to about 2-3 pounds per head since we have grass coming on strong, has in simple terms, the total package for rumen health in our cattle. They are getting prebiotics and probiotics. I've posted the tag before if anyone needs the mix.

Our program is not for everyone. It's safe to say that our cattle have every last thing they need to reach their genetic potential. I've spoken with multiple well informed sources about Rumensin, and from everything I've gathered, it allows for, or helps for a more efficient rumen. Our cattle simply process more of what goes into their mouth with our setup. Every bite counts.

As for fly control, it's a non stop battle because I cannot get my neighbors on the same plan I'm on. I prefer to try and kill the flies from the inside out and then use a Vet Gun 3-4 times during the peak months to round up the program.

I've used Vitaferm Heat and I saw no noticeable difference in the amount of flies, I had to use ear tags and Vet gun as well.

When dealing with the flies, the mineral with Rabon should be in their systems starting early March, to be most effective.

I'm trying to deal with all kinds of flies, not just horn flies.