How do you call the cows

[GoWyo]

I have watched this thread with some interest. I study cow behavior of my own cows and the neighbors, friends, etc. The cow handling kind of goes with how you train your cows to handle. Mine will come running and pen up no problem in the winter when we are either feeding cake or hay. Once the grass comes on, they don't care if I have cake or grain or anything else. They are happy right where I find them and I have to put stress on them to move them anywhere. Stress is put on by horseback, usually. At AI time they get kind of sour about being gathered. I can gather 70 head by myself then, but they just don't want to go anywhere, so two riders is better. I would use a dog, but don't have enough work for one except about 10 days per year. So, I have used a longe whip horseback just to provide a little more momentum. Once AI breeding is done they go to summer pastures and we gather them horseback when we need to get something in and they are not watering at a trap (about half our lease pastures have water in a pen and some are just tanks in the pasture). Our cows are only "callable" in the fall/winter.

The summer grazing "herd" mentality is interesting. I have had 25-30 pairs on a 700 acre lease pasture in the summer. My observation is that the herd stays together pretty much. Occasionally a little bunch will split off or get left behind. Then the bull has to work both bunches. I do prefer when they all stick together. I do observe which grass species they are chasing throughout the summer and fall -- that is always interesting watching warm season and forbs come into play if we get some July or August rain.

 

[Bob Kinford]

Look... you might know something. I have no idea, because you aren't being very specific with all of your allusions. But at this point it sounds more like bull**it than reality.

That's a normal reaction with concepts which go against our predisposed paradigms. We accept that cattle (which we consider to be a herd animal) behave totally different than any other herd animal without questioning why. We accept the fact, that in order to practice regenerative grazing, we have to use multiple paddocks and at least daily (if not multiple moves daily) to achieve the effects of wild herds. Let someone mention that cattle can exhibit the exact same behavior (allowing us to graze regeneratively without fences or daily herding) and, rather than question why not, we automatically call bull**. Without having the curiosity to at least question the possibility of a new concept, we go through life blindly following our beliefs, never knowing if something better is out there. Even when a person is curious, it may take years before they actually try to learn the new methods. There are people who have talked to me several times a year for up to five years before they actually make a commitment to learn. You can either be curious enough to look at videos, or continue to stay tight in your beliefs.

Rebooting Herd Instinct

Regenerate pastures utilizing natural herd and migratory instincts of cattle.rather than fences and daily moves. Grazing schools and consulting available to help manage infrastructure costs and development. Work smarter, not harder!

migratorygrazing.com

 

[Bob Kinford]

Sounds like you are starting to figure some things out. I would recommend taking in a Temple Grandin seminar or two if you haven't already.

Thanks you. If you read Temple Grandin's book on caring for livestock, you will find that she mentions my work in a couple of places.

 

[gcreekrch]

Had a world renown speaker to come though this fall even thought I had heard him and also had spoken on a program that he was on years and years ago. He had the public front and the private side. Really was a nicer guy in public than to me and family behind the scene. Maybe he has mellowed or maybe not. I just went to be a part of the group this time. He effectively insulted most folks there who are small family farmers with limited land and limited resources. He pulled out his statistics of western cowboys who can manage 1200+ pair and anyone who is not doing that is lazy, not real cattlemen or wasting time. It went on and on and I finally got up on about his 44th point and left for home. He has books, PR all over the place, speaks at high end events and is a media guru. The comments I heard from some of the folks who heard his presentation were not good and were actually bad. But his fame grows and grows.

A media guru has to be different and takes the facts and makes them his/her's by twists. Otherwise, the speech, the book, the article or the video is always a Plain Jane. Currently, the one that peeves me the most are the Bonsma gurus who turn Dr. Bonsma's effort to raise beef in decent sized animals with annual production data and keep/cull to their duck butt little tallow type "grass fed" cattle. Talk about trying to turn a silk purse into a sow's ear - they are doing it and making money off of their made up junk. Modern day P. T. Barnams.

Best way to milk the public is to make them aware of problems that don't exsist or matter little.

When I attended the RFP school there were only 24 students. The instructor let us know they were quite disappointed in the number as they preferred 60 to 75 students. At $2500 a pop I soon figured out where the biggest profit was in the scheme.
The RFP school is only a lot of smaller ideas derived from others and marketed very, very well. Some has merit in some places, some are pipe dreams everywhere unless you are captivated by the bs.
As a friend of mine who went to a presentation by Gerald Fry told me…… Mr. Fry went on for some time about grass based genetics and measuring cows etc. My friend asked where he lived as my friend wanted to see this herd of perfect grass cows. Mr. Fry blinked a couple times and said he didn't own any cows……

 

[Logan52]

I try to appreciate those more knowledgeable than myself and recognize my "Luddite" tendencies, but, to me, this thread took a turn for the worse

 

[Travlr]

That's a normal reaction with concepts which go against our predisposed paradigms. We accept that cattle (which we consider to be a herd animal) behave totally different than any other herd animal without questioning why. We accept the fact, that in order to practice regenerative grazing, we have to use multiple paddocks and at least daily (if not multiple moves daily) to achieve the effects of wild herds. Let someone mention that cattle can exhibit the exact same behavior (allowing us to graze regeneratively without fences or daily herding) and, rather than question why not, we automatically call bull**. Without having the curiosity to at least question the possibility of a new concept, we go through life blindly following our beliefs, never knowing if something better is out there. Even when a person is curious, it may take years before they actually try to learn the new methods. There are people who have talked to me several times a year for up to five years before they actually make a commitment to learn. You can either be curious enough to look at videos, or continue to stay tight in your beliefs.

Rebooting Herd Instinct

Regenerate pastures utilizing natural herd and migratory instincts of cattle.rather than fences and daily moves. Grazing schools and consulting available to help manage infrastructure costs and development. Work smarter, not harder!

migratorygrazing.com

Bob, I took about a half hour out of my life to look at your very nicely done videos... and don't see much in them that I don't do... other than I don't use a horse or have wild cattle to begin with in miles and miles of scrub. The behaviors you example and the methods you use are relatively well known. I doubt there are many people here that don't know herding cattle is a lot like how water moves and that both cattle and water will take the path of least resistance.

I just don't see how you come up with the idea that calling cattle and using their natural herd instincts to follow a leader are stressful. You own cattle in the video were following their leaders. If some broke off from the main bunch it was because they were following a cow that broke off from the main herd.

I'm sure you mean well. I don't have any doubt you manage cattle well in the conditions you showed. But there are some assumptions you seem to be operating under about the rest of us that are less than accurate and seem to be driven by your own misperceptions.

A lot of us here find value in Temple Grandin's work, and some have used Allan Savory's methods to some advantage. How we do it varies only because we have individual experience with our own results. For instance I've never divided or rotated pastures as much as most of the people here that rotate theirs do. And I have my reasons, and they have theirs. We exchange our ideas and sometimes we get heated, just like families do. And I've been accused of being on a high horse, and sometimes I take that to heart and sometimes I don't.

I'm going to suggest you come down off that high horse you are riding and sit down with a cup around the campfire with us... and do some listening (and thinking).

 

[TCRanch]

Great marketing video, and better than most ranches. From the scope of your experience (especially when compared to your neighbor's cows) your cattle are pretty stress free, but my parameters go a bit deeper. When I see a picture of people feeding cows out of their hand (or someone standing on a horse, cracking a whip) my mind automatically asks the question "Are they really that gentle/broke, or are they overly desensitized with no sense of boundaries?"

My signs of stress in cattle include how they graze.

If they aren't stressed, they will not only be grazing in a density which fits the feed conditions, they will also be all facing in the same general direction as they graze.

How do they behave when they go through a gate? Are they waiting for you at the gate, or do they keep grazing/ ruminating waiting for you to approach them to head to the gate? Do they put their heads down and graze together? Do they start grazing, but do so in as many directions as you have cows? Do they keep moving, with cattle spreading out to different parts of the pasture as they do?

These are all things which affect animal performance, and grazing behavior. It affects how they select what to eat (and when) and even where on a plant they bite. There is a cascading effect from there. But unless you challenge your paradigms, you won't see it (much like people who still claim Bud Williams didn't know how to work cattle.)

Yes, mine are really that gentle. And it's not like I have backyard "herd" of 5. Boundaries? Not so much if they think I might have a treat or want a scratch. But I tag, give Inforce 3 and a First Defense bolus the day the calves are born, and I need cattle that trust me but also respect my space when I'm working their calves. Another reason I retain heifers based on their dams lineage, including docility. First calf heifers are taught right off the bat, I'm gonna work your calf and you're going to stand there and watch, maybe moo encouragement if the calf bawls. If that means my cattle are desensitized, so be it!

Grazing? I don't do rotational grazing with sections fenced off, but my herd seems to do it on their own. South pasture a few days, move on to the west pasture for a few, central pasture, maybe north, heading to the lake . . . . Gotta be honest, I've never watched which way they're all facing unless it's a weather-related event. Selecting what to eat is slim pickings during an epic 2-year drought.

I appreciate your knowledge and insight. Should it be implemented in my world? Probably not.

 

[Named'em Tamed'em]

"not like i have backyard " herd of 5

Hey I'm sensitive and resemble that remark!!

 

[Silver]

Grandpa always said "no one is so stupid you can't learn something from them" and I do try to live by that. But I can't tolerate someone who walks in to the room without knowing anyone with the attitude that they are the resident expert. It just might be that several others in the room have also spent a lifetime doing and learning, and probably don't mind an even exchange of ideas and ways of doing things. In fact it could just be that the so called expert could just learn a thing or two. Because you know, none of us are so stupid that….
I've seen too many 'experts' that I wouldn't let near my cows more than the first time.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Great marketing video, and better than most ranches. From the scope of your experience (especially when compared to your neighbor's cows) your cattle are pretty stress free, but my parameters go a bit deeper. When I see a picture of people feeding cows out of their hand (or someone standing on a horse, cracking a whip) my mind automatically asks the question "Are they really that gentle/broke, or are they overly desensitized with no sense of boundaries?"

My signs of stress in cattle include how they graze.

If they aren't stressed, they will not only be grazing in a density which fits the feed conditions, they will also be all facing in the same general direction as they graze.

How do they behave when they go through a gate? Are they waiting for you at the gate, or do they keep grazing/ ruminating waiting for you to approach them to head to the gate? Do they put their heads down and graze together? Do they start grazing, but do so in as many directions as you have cows? Do they keep moving, with cattle spreading out to different parts of the pasture as they do?

These are all things which affect animal performance, and grazing behavior. It affects how they select what to eat (and when) and even where on a plant they bite. There is a cascading effect from there. But unless you challenge your paradigms, you won't see it (much like people who still claim Bud Williams didn't know how to work cattle.)

You spout a lot if words that are nonsense.
How many cattle do YOU OWN?

 

[GoWyo]

gcreek and silver and Dave -- what do your cows do on smer range when there are large predators such as wolves and grizzly bears in their area? Do they tend to bunch up in larger herds or do they tend to scatter out in smaller groups?

 

[gcreekrch]

gcreek and silver and Dave -- what do your cows do on smer range when there are large predators such as wolves and grizzly bears in their area? Do they tend to bunch up in larger herds or do they tend to scatter out in smaller groups?

Yes….. a predator has less chance if they bunch up and show fight but it doesn't take much to get them running. Then it is over.
Bears will quietly sneak up on sleeping calves. We had a large black bear kill a 400 lb calf right in the middle of the road coming into our place. Area of struggle was less than an 8 foot square. He quit doing bad deeds a few hours later.
We see our cows in herds of 100+ one day and bunches of 20 the day after. One range that we turn 400 cows into is roughly 75 square miles.

 

[GoWyo]

Yes….. a predator has less chance if they bunch up and show fight but it doesn't take much to get them running. Then it is over.
Bears will quietly sneak up on sleeping calves. We had a large black bear kill a 400 lb calf right in the middle of the road coming into our place. Area of struggle was less than an 8 foot square. He quit doing bad deeds a few hours later.
We see our cows in herds of 100+ one day and bunches of 20 the day after. One range that we turn 400 cows into is roughly 75 square miles.

There was some research in Northern California a couple of years ago where they were using dogs to condition cattle to bunch up and hold their ground as a strategy to minimize wolf attacks. As soon as one critter panics and quits the herd it is game over for that cow or calf, but the herd that holds together has a better chance.

 

[gcreekrch]

There was some research in Northern California a couple of years ago where they were using dogs to condition cattle to bunch up and hold their ground as a strategy to minimize wolf attacks. As soon as one critter panics and quits the herd it is game over for that cow or calf, but the herd that holds together has a better chance.

When one can drive a hundred pairs with the help of one dog it leads to a question though.

 

[GoWyo]

When one can drive a hundred pairs with the help of one dog it leads to a question though.

Yes. If they want to bunch up and fight, then dogs aren't going to work very well. Solve one problem and create another.

 

[Silver]

We had a milk cow time that wouldn't back down from the dog, good working dog but she completely had that dog's number. When the wolves came through one night she was obviously the the one that made a stand. Just a few shiny bones was all that was left in the morning.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

I have a couple replacment heifers that are really friendly with my heeler. Afraid they have no fear of K9s and the wolves may have a buffet sometime.

 

[wbvs58]

Yes….. a predator has less chance if they bunch up and show fight but it doesn't take much to get them running. Then it is over.
Bears will quietly sneak up on sleeping calves. We had a large black bear kill a 400 lb calf right in the middle of the road coming into our place. Area of struggle was less than an 8 foot square. He quit doing bad deeds a few hours later.
We see our cows in herds of 100+ one day and bunches of 20 the day after. One range that we turn 400 cows into is roughly 75 square miles.

Are these ranges fenced Dave?

Ken

 

[gcreekrch]

Are these ranges fenced Dave?

Ken

Somewhat. North and east sides are bordered by an old burn and some steep hill country. Not a fence to stop them in 50 or 60 miles if they were determined to go. New cattle stay in fenced range the first year.

 

[Brute 23]

Calling cows to feed, or using feed to gentle cattle is a poor substitute for good stockmanship. Having cattle that eat out of your hand makes for cool pictures, but in reality you have created an animal with no respect for you. Improve your stockmanship and it makes things flow smoother and actually adds money to your bottom line that you don't realize you're currently throwing away.

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Regenerate pastures utilizing natural herd and migratory instincts of cattle.rather than fences and daily moves. Grazing schools and consulting available to help manage infrastructure costs and development. Work smarter, not harder!

migratorygrazing.com

This guys only purpose here is to pitch his website. No matter what he says, he is a salesman first and stockman second... or some where after that.