horned herefords

[Brandonm22]

This has come up before. A lot of the herds I THOUGHT were Mark Donald, when I looked up the websites, I found they were using mostly Line 1s now. For most of the U.S. horned Hereford means Line 1. There is a lot more genetic diversity on the polled side to select from.

 

[alexfarms]

Interesting comments, as a Polled breeder I have witnessed many good lines of cattle become "extinct"
over the past thirty years. Not by a paticular bloodline, but buy so many polled breeders partaking in the
"Bull of the month club". Our program is to preserve and improve the Victor Domino bloodline and not
let this line be deluted and or eventually lost. I would have liked for some other polled lines to have been
preserved and to have been viable options for today. Too many breeders today are not paying attention
to real needs of real cattlemen. Birthweight, fertility, mature cow size to name a few.

DM

Tell us a bit more about your cattle, post a few pics, etc.

I am in the process of taking some updated pics, but you can view some of our bulls and females at http://www.jmsvictordomino.com
Will post some updated pictures hopefully this evening.

DM

Website is well done. Good looking beef cattle.

 

[JHH]

This has come up before. A lot of the herds I THOUGHT were Mark Donald, when I looked up the websites, I found they were using mostly Line 1s now. For most of the U.S. horned Hereford means Line 1. There is a lot more genetic diversity on the polled side to select from.

You really think so? I am under the impression that most of the polled lines have some line one in them now.

Just look at star lake they have been using a few horned bulls and cant forget about Barber ranch ( I think thats right) they cross most every horned cow ( a lot of line one )with a polled bull with good results.

As far as polled go most everthing has remitall , or feltons in it. I dont mean that in a bad way.

I am going to do a little looking later tonight.

The Felton line is all but gone to isnt it? I know there are a lot of A-I bulls left but that was dispersed wasnt it?

 

[SRBeef]

This has come up before. A lot of the herds I THOUGHT were Mark Donald, when I looked up the websites, I found they were using mostly Line 1s now. For most of the U.S. horned Hereford means Line 1. There is a lot more genetic diversity on the polled side to select from.

You really think so? I am under the impression that most of the polled lines have some line one in them now.

Just look at star lake they have been using a few horned bulls and cant forget about Barber ranch ( I think thats right) they cross most every horned cow ( a lot of line one )with a polled bull with good results.

As far as polled go most everthing has remitall , or feltons in it. I dont mean that in a bad way.

I am going to do a little looking later tonight.

The Felton line is all but gone to isnt it? I know there are a lot of A-I bulls left but that was dispersed wasnt it?

I've been reading this thread as it develops hoping to learn something(s). I keep looking back at my own T-21 bull's pedigree and comparing to the comments above. his pedigree seems to have about everything discussed: some horns, some polled, some Line 1, some Feltons, etc.

T-21 is really the product of a lot of genetic development. And from what I have seen I like the result. Not perfect, but a good, thoughtful blending of a lot of different thinking in cattle genetics.

For ref: http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C235927232020&9=535250

Folks talk about saving some of the old lines... I see a parallel to corn breeding here. Breeders search high and low for breeding stock with needed traits, hybridize (breed) them and produce new and improved varieties which naturally everyone wants to use. Isn't that the point - to produce a high quality hybrid then sell a lot of it.

The danger is when everyone is using the same "new and improved" hybrids is the loss of genetic diversity. Has this happened especially in the Angus breed? That is what has happened in fruits & vegetables and why some folks save old seed/apples etc even though they are really not as good in some ways as the current varieties but they do have some good traits and provide genetic diversity....

Seems like this is a common problem: how to provide new and improved genetics for widespread use but not lose the old time natural genetic diversity which allowed us to get there.... Just some thoughts.

This leads to my own "genetic diversity" problem - in a small operation if you have a bull you real like and very limited facilities and time to maintain separate bulls in the off season and can't/won't do AI for various reasons how do you keep a really good bull around? I've decided to keep T-21 as long as I can working with neighbors etc but even that only works for a couple years....

Jim

 

[JHH]

This leads to my own "genetic diversity" problem - in a small operation if you have a bull you real like and very limited facilities and time to maintain separate bulls in the off season and can't/won't do AI for various reasons how do you keep a really good bull around? I've decided to keep T-21 as long as I can working with neighbors etc but even that only works for a couple years....

Jim I guess you could sell an interest in him ,if you could get anyone interested. then use him on his grand daughters to line breed him. If all goes well he should still be sound and fertile at 10 years old.

Or I guess you can collect him, then when you make time you could A-I some of the grand daughters or great granddaughters.

He looks like he is a good bull.

BUT I have to wonder what he would look like if put out in missouri pasture with more weeds than grass and have to hustle to survive and put fat on for reserve.

You have a great grass program that you have worked at, and it works for you and the cows as it shows by the pics. Not trying to take anything away from you or your bull. I think he is a very good one.

 

[I luv herfrds]

Speaking as a commercial breeder the thing that bothers me is finding so many bulls with L1's. It seems to be the "thing" to have as a breeder.
I cannot agree with that. Especially having prolapse happen to just those L1's we owned.

Looking last night through several breeders web sites and finding almost all of them having brought in this L1 strain is a put off for me.

Idaman I like your idea of getting some of the older genetics going again.

 

[SRBeef]

...BUT I have to wonder what he would look like if put out in missouri pasture with more weeds than grass and have to hustle to survive and put fat on for reserve...

I think T-21 is basically a good GRASS bull. In poorer forage as on western dryland ranches where basically the cattle graze on whatever is available and there is little or no work done by the rancher to improve vast areas of rangeland I think he would probably work to find whatever forage he could find as Herefords are noted for.

But your comment reminds me of the question of what is the difference between a rancher and a farmer (other than the type hat they wear!).

I see myself as a farmer. Maybe mostly from my row crop, corn/bean/etc based day job. As I get into cattle I STILL see myself more as a farmer, in this case a GRASS farmer compared to a row crop farmer.

Part of this is my location in a moist north central climate area with smaller average farm size than the huge western or southwestern ranches. In my case MUCH smaller.

I tend to look at grass in some ways as I look at a corn crop - what can I do to get more from an acre at the same or lower cost per unit???

So I guess other than the normal drier years (when I will use wrapped hay bales as a backup in a sacrifice pasture), as a grass farmer I don't want to see my bull or cattle having to scrounge for forage. I see my job to manage my grass so they always have enough to do their job which is growing calves and quality beef as efficiently as possible.

With the recent heat and humidity, even in Wisconsin, I opened up one of my poorer pastures to them to graze on Saturday 7/31 so they would have access to the full cooler woods in the background rather than just the small patch of trees in their previous pasture. This is a poorer rocky hillside and about as lean a grass as I want to put my herd into. So I think T-21 and about any other Hereford would be just fine in this grass.

I do appreciate your comments about breeding back to granddaughters. With our discussion on linebreeding I do think I will give this a try. Just can't go daughters AND granddaughters, need to skip one generation if I understand correctly. Here is an interesting commentary on linebreeding Herefords you may have seen before:

http://www.witherspoonsherefords.com/WNHWEB11.HTM

FWIW. Jim

edit: interesting to compare my photos with BRG excellent "Red Cattle" pictures in another post. really shows the difference between western wide-open spaces ranching compared to my smaller scale grass farming. One is not better or worse than the other, they are just different. Vive la difference!

 

[Idaman]

Speaking as a commercial breeder the thing that bothers me is finding so many bulls with L1's. It seems to be the "thing" to have as a breeder.
I cannot agree with that. Especially having prolapse happen to just those L1's we owned.

Looking last night through several breeders web sites and finding almost all of them having brought in this L1 strain is a put off for me.

Idaman I like your idea of getting some of the older genetics going again.

Check the link. Those people sell lots of unregistered bulls. That may be the way for the commercial cattleman to go.

http://www.whiteranches.com/

 

[Herefords.US]

Yeah, it's too bad those Line 1 cattle were so good that almost everyone turned to them to correct the problems that were inherent in their own herds in the 60s, 70s, and 80s - the key problem being lack of performance and growth.

George

 

[JHH]

Yeah, it's too bad those Line 1 cattle were so good that almost everyone turned to them to correct the problems that were inherent in their own herds in the 60s, 70s, and 80s - the key problem being lack of performance and growth.

George

George that is kind of what I was getting at when I said most polled lines are carrying a line 1 bull in the backround.

 

[WichitaLineMan]

Speaking as a commercial breeder the thing that bothers me is finding so many bulls with L1's. It seems to be the "thing" to have as a breeder.
I cannot agree with that. Especially having prolapse happen to just those L1's we owned.

Looking last night through several breeders web sites and finding almost all of them having brought in this L1 strain is a put off for me.

Idaman I like your idea of getting some of the older genetics going again.

Check the link. Those people sell lots of unregistered bulls. That may be the way for the commercial cattleman to go.

http://www.whiteranches.com/

Those have line one and 386 at that.

 

[Idaman]

Speaking as a commercial breeder the thing that bothers me is finding so many bulls with L1's. It seems to be the "thing" to have as a breeder.
I cannot agree with that. Especially having prolapse happen to just those L1's we owned.

Looking last night through several breeders web sites and finding almost all of them having brought in this L1 strain is a put off for me.

Idaman I like your idea of getting some of the older genetics going again.

Check the link. Those people sell lots of unregistered bulls. That may be the way for the commercial cattleman to go.

http://www.whiteranches.com/

Those have line one and 386 at that.

That is a shock. I called them a couple of days ago because I knew Jim had a registered herd at one time but they never mentioned the L1s although I didn't ask when they said that they discountinued their registereds some time ago.

I guess I'll have to prize my L1 free cows, the few that I have. They are old line Canadian. With the most recent bull being born in 1978. They are somewhat linebred to a bull born in 1970.

 

[Herefords.US]

Interesting comments, as a Polled breeder I have witnessed many good lines of cattle become "extinct"
over the past thirty years. Not by a paticular bloodline, but buy so many polled breeders partaking in the
"Bull of the month club". Our program is to preserve and improve the Victor Domino bloodline and not
let this line be deluted and or eventually lost. I would have liked for some other polled lines to have been
preserved and to have been viable options for today. Too many breeders today are not paying attention
to real needs of real cattlemen. Birthweight, fertility, mature cow size to name a few.

DM

Tell us a bit more about your cattle, post a few pics, etc.

I am in the process of taking some updated pics, but you can view some of our bulls and females at http://www.jmsvictordomino.com
Will post some updated pictures hopefully this evening.

DM

Danny, I took a look at your website and was really impressed - not with any particular individual, but particularly the consistency shown in the photos of the yearling heifers and the also young bulls on your home page. Looking at the EPDs of your 2009 calf crop on the AHA website, it appears you have your low birthweight -moderate cow size (moderate growth EPDs) goal well defined.

I also noted that your cattle appear to have a good bit of IMF bred in, as well as a little extra backfat. I think the backfat is a positive for a cowherd, but others will disagree. What are your thoughts?

Also, according to your cowherd page, some of your cowherd traces to Anhinga Farms. Some of the Anhinga bulls have been found to be HY carriers. Any thoughts about this disorder and the need to test for it?

Good job! It looks as if you've been working at it for a while!

George

 

[mrvictordomino]

Thank you for the complements. I have been working on this herd for over thirty-five years.
I have definitely done it my way, ignoring the fads of the day and any single trait selection.
I believe you will find high maternal cattle tend to have positive IMF numbers, and this herd
is definitely that. I would hope that the little extra back fat numbers would help indicate that
our cattle are easy fleshing and can mature a little earlier than some others.
The Anhinga Farms influence in this herd is basically from two bulls purchased in 1984 and 1986.
The latter being the 579 bull that is in many of our pedigrees several times. With the herd being
closed since 1987 to outside females, and the fact that we have a line-breeding program, I would
think that if there were any issues pertaining to HY we would have seen it twenty years after we
used these bulls.

DM

 

[Brandonm22]

This has come up before. A lot of the herds I THOUGHT were Mark Donald, when I looked up the websites, I found they were using mostly Line 1s now. For most of the U.S. horned Hereford means Line 1. There is a lot more genetic diversity on the polled side to select from.

You really think so? I am under the impression that most of the polled lines have some line one in them now.

Just look at star lake they have been using a few horned bulls and cant forget about Barber ranch ( I think thats right) they cross most every horned cow ( a lot of line one )with a polled bull with good results.

As far as polled go most everthing has remitall , or feltons in it. I dont mean that in a bad way.

I am going to do a little looking later tonight.

The Felton line is all but gone to isnt it? I know there are a lot of A-I bulls left but that was dispersed wasnt it?

Victor crossed with Line One, Remitall crossed with Line One, Prospector crossed with Line One, etc is STILL a whole lot more diversity than 3 or 4 generations of Line One which is increasingly what we see on the Horned side. Maybe I know more about the polled side; but if I really really want a bull with Remitall, Trask, Victor, Felton Domino 774, Feltons 517, or hybrid of any of the above lines I can have him in 90 days (tomorrow in several cases). There are still a lot of polled cattle around that can be had that don't fit into those groups. I would be hard pressed to find a horned herd within 200 miles of me that was not primarily Line One and honestly if I were to buy a horned bull it WOULD be a Line One.

 

[JHH]

This has come up before. A lot of the herds I THOUGHT were Mark Donald, when I looked up the websites, I found they were using mostly Line 1s now. For most of the U.S. horned Hereford means Line 1. There is a lot more genetic diversity on the polled side to select from.

You really think so? I am under the impression that most of the polled lines have some line one in them now.

Just look at star lake they have been using a few horned bulls and cant forget about Barber ranch ( I think thats right) they cross most every horned cow ( a lot of line one )with a polled bull with good results.

As far as polled go most everthing has remitall , or feltons in it. I dont mean that in a bad way.

I am going to do a little looking later tonight.

The Felton line is all but gone to isnt it? I know there are a lot of A-I bulls left but that was dispersed wasnt it?

Victor crossed with Line One, Remitall crossed with Line One, Prospector crossed with Line One, etc is STILL a whole lot more diversity than 3 or 4 generations of Line One which is increasingly what we see on the Horned side. Maybe I know more about the polled side; but if I really really want a bull with Remitall, Trask, Victor, Felton Domino 774, Feltons 517, or hybrid of any of the above lines I can have him in 90 days (tomorrow in several cases). There are still a lot of polled cattle around that can be had that don't fit into those groups. I would be hard pressed to find a horned herd within 200 miles of me that was not primarily Line One and honestly if I were to buy a horned bull it WOULD be a Line One.[/quote]


I was looking at it one sided as I do alot of things. You are right. If you wanted a black bull however you can have your pick on that to.

But around me you have a hard time finding a hereford. This is black cattle country. ( Angus x angus x angus is most everyones 3 way cross here) I have 5 breeders close to me that refuse to put anything else in there herd. :roll: I would like to see at least a crossed up black bull in with them. And none of them sell bulls or females.They dont even register them. I guess its there loss not mine. Even I have a few black calves :lol:

 

[JHH]

Anyone see the Dec Hereford World yet? Looks like on page 28 someone is trying to get some interest in the old Mark Donald line. Any thoughts on this?

 

[alexfarms]

From the looks of the pedigrees on page 28, the Mark Donalds were never really gone. They are pretty deep in Mark Donald blood. They have some L1 blended into their pedigrees, but then alot of the cattle being called L1 today have some Mark Donald blended into their pedigrees also. It is good to see the Mark Donalds make an appearance and I hope their owner does well with them. Bone, weight and milk.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

can someone find a pic of this bull called giant and post him. I can't seem to find a pic.

 

[Idaman]

can someone find a pic of this bull called giant and post him. I can't seem to find a pic.

I think the polled guys burned them all.

The one I remember was in a circa 1920 college textbook that was in my uncles stuff but that was at least 55 years ago. I hope one can be found and posted.