horned herefords

[KNERSIE]

Prolapse of the prepuce is a common defect in bulls, particularly in Bos indicus cattle. In B taurus cattle, it is common in polled beef breeds. A long, pendulous sheath, a large preputial orifice, and absence or poor development of the retractor prepuce muscles are predisposing inherited anatomic abnormalities. Prolapse of the prepuce predisposes the animal to injury, which can lead to abscess formation, scarring, adhesions, or phimosis. Surgical correction of the prolapse is possible, but as genetic predisposition may play a role, castration should be carefully considered. - Merck Veterinary Manual- >Reproductive System>
Congenital and Inherited Anomalies of the Reproductive System.


Emphasis mine.

That is why I said the biggest difference and not the only difference.

It can be selected against, its not a problem in my herd at all now, it was a few years back when a certain bull I used's sons all had a lazy prepuce.

Like most I started with horned cattle and have no gripe with them at all, but my market wants poll bulls. I still have a few dehorned cows and they don't fare any better under my conditions than good polls. One thing I might add is I don't see near as many bad udders and especially bottle teats in the polls as I did in horned herefords. Don't let a few bad apples spoil the entire cold room.

 

[alexfarms]

Prolapse of the prepuce is a common defect in bulls, particularly in Bos indicus cattle. In B taurus cattle, it is common in polled beef breeds. A long, pendulous sheath, a large preputial orifice, and absence or poor development of the retractor prepuce muscles are predisposing inherited anatomic abnormalities. Prolapse of the prepuce predisposes the animal to injury, which can lead to abscess formation, scarring, adhesions, or phimosis. Surgical correction of the prolapse is possible, but as genetic predisposition may play a role, castration should be carefully considered. - Merck Veterinary Manual- >Reproductive System>
Congenital and Inherited Anomalies of the Reproductive System.


Emphasis mine.

You bet, poor sheathed bull calves should be castrated.

 

[BIZIN]

commenting on polled bulls fighting more... When we pull our bulls in October we put the Simmie bulls, Char bulls, Welsh Black Bulls, and horned hereford bulls all into one pasture for the winter, they fight for a day and thats it. We trailed the bulls 5 miles to the corrals and semen tested on monday and broke them up into their breeding fields. They didnt fight at all during the winter that i noticed and didnt fight the 5 miles to the corral, but the minute the horned bulls are pulled off the Char, Welsh and Simmie bulls they fight. Got 100 ft out of the corral with 8 Simmie bulls and they damn near fought the 2 miles to the cows they were going with. Same with breeding. Our horned bulls can almost cover twice as many cows than the polled bulls and this year all our open cows were out of the simmie and char fields. Horned bulls covered 100% in 3 pastures with bigger number per bull. Our horned bulls follow a cow each, get her bred and move on, they spread out, when I check the Simmie and Char fields there will be 4 bulls following one cow and fighting over who gets to breed her! I'm a 4th generation horned hereford breeder so I am quite bias towards horned cattle, but growing up in a feedlot and buying cattle since I was 16 has really opened my eyes to what good cattle are. When I could legally buy cattle at 18 I started going to auction marts and 2 old cattle buyers told me this,(and my apologies to anyone who breeds these) "There is no such thing as a good polled hereford or a good limo!" In some cases they are wrong, but in alot of cases I find they are right. Another thing they told me was to stay they hell away from Rat-tailed grey calves. I never could understand why till I started managing the feedlot, there is something in the rat-tailed, mousy grey cattle that doesnt allow them to perform or something, I am not talking about good silvers with good hair, talking about those ugly mousy looking things with no hair. We make sure all ouf bulls are horned. Our Char bulls are horned but de-horned, so are our Simmie bulls and our Welsh Black bulls. Even the Speckle Park bull I have is scurred!

 

[KNERSIE]

Our horned bulls can almost cover twice as many cows than the polled bulls and this year all our open cows were out of the simmie and char fields.

Because they're more horny?

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshite.

 

[SRBeef]

I am new to cattle in general which can have some advantages along with disadvantages.

It seems from what little cattle history I do know that the horned Herefords have been around a lot longer than the polled Herefords which are much more recent selection, the 1950's as I understand it.

It would then be logical and fair to assume that a breed that was initially selected for a single trait may have had some catch-up breeding to do over the past 50-60 years to get to the level that the older horned Herefords may have reached in a couple centuries of breeding.

It would also be likely that comments heard about polled Herefords 40 or 50 years ago are no longer valid today. In fact with the interest in polled cattle and using horned cattle as a breeding base, polled Herefords may have made rapid progress and even caught up in many ways over the past 50 years of intensive breeding.

My own bull is scurred and has some horned breeding in his pedigree. I found an interesting article on scurs here: http://www.witherspoonsherefords.com/WNH_WEB7.HTM

Because of my location and being much more land-limited than the traditional western ranch, I am using a rotational grazing system. In this system I am often in very close quarters to my cattle. They also go through my alley and chute very regularly. Horns just are not acceptable in this system.

I had one steer calf from one of my older Hereford cows last year who had horns. as he got close to being a yearling he was often using his horns to move others out of the way. I would find bits of others hair on his horns and gashes in the others sides. He went for processing very quickly. But this showed me that if you have horned cattle in close quarter they should probably ALL be horned to level the playing field. I will never again have a horned animal in my herd. Dehorning is not something I want to get into.

Horns seem to me to be something for the large traditional ranches out west, not for small intensive operations like mine. However I understand even the feedlots do not really want horned cattle in their lots.

So I think there are places for both polled and horned Herefords. The need for good polled Hereford cattle has probably accelerated the breeding improvements faster than the old attitudes. I see the future however more in polled than horned. jmho.

Jim

 

[alftn]

It is all about place/location, I can see how a thousand ac. or 10,000 ac. ranch, horns might make a difference...But on my East of the Mississippi, small 100 acs. where I might run 50 cows, one bull will do....I do not want horns , I do not want to dehorn, either with paste or cutters,thus a polled bull reduces my work....It is easy to say, I like horn( would not own a polled animal) when some one else does the work....ON MY FARM, I do all the work and horns are not allowed.

 

[Herefords.US]

I am new to cattle in general which can have some advantages along with disadvantages.

It seems from what little cattle history I do know that the horned Herefords have been around a lot longer than the polled Herefords which are much more recent selection, the 1950's as I understand it.


It would then be logical and fair to assume that a breed that was initially selected for a single trait may have had some catch-up breeding to do over the past 50-60 years to get to the level that the older horned Herefords may have reached in a couple centuries of breeding.

Jim

Jim, you just missed the origination of Polled Herefords and the concentration on breeding for the trait by 50 years.

http://www.tpha.net/history.html

http://www.herefordamerica.com/history.html

The horned Herefords did have a head start, but after 110 years of breeding, that seems an old and tired excuse - particularly since there's been so much horned Hereford blood infused back into the polls in the last thirty years.

The stereotypes that people have formed now exists in their minds more than it's present in the cattle as a whole. The problem is, other than Line 1s and a few other "maverick" breeders, no one has practiced enough linebreeding in their herds to have any consistency bred into their cattle. And that applies to both horned and polled breeders.

George

 

[SRBeef]

I am new to cattle in general which can have some advantages along with disadvantages.

It seems from what little cattle history I do know that the horned Herefords have been around a lot longer than the polled Herefords which are much more recent selection, the 1950's as I understand it.


It would then be logical and fair to assume that a breed that was initially selected for a single trait may have had some catch-up breeding to do over the past 50-60 years to get to the level that the older horned Herefords may have reached in a couple centuries of breeding.

Jim

Jim, you just missed the origination of Polled Herefords and the concentration on breeding for the trait by 50 years.

http://www.tpha.net/history.html

http://www.herefordamerica.com/history.html

The horned Herefords did have a head start, but after 110 years of breeding, that seems an old and tired excuse - particularly since there's been so much horned Hereford blood infused back into the polls in the last thirty years.

The stereotypes that people have formed now exists in their minds more than it's present in the cattle as a whole. The problem is, other than Line 1s and a few other "maverick" breeders, no one has practiced enough linebreeding in their herds to have any consistency bred into their cattle. And that applies to both horned and polled breeders.

George

Yes, I stand corrected, I misunderstood the reference I looked up which said "...the Polled Hereford began in the U.S. and moved to England in the 1950s"

On your line breeding comment, here is an interesting commentary you may be familiar with: http://www.witherspoonsherefords.com/WNHWEB11.HTM that points out the need and benefits of line breeding for consistency.

Jim

 

[Idaman]

When I was a kid in the late forties or early fifties I used to look through the CSU text books on animal husbandry. I had an uncle that had gone there in the mid twenties and I had all of his books. One book that was dated 1925 was one of my favorites. In that book was a chapter on the beginnings of the polled Herefords. So they had started some time before that by several years. To this day I remember a picture of the bull that the book said started the polls. That bull's name was Giant. I was so impressed and appauled by that picture that I swore to myself right there and then that I would never in my lifetime own anything related to Giant.

Today I can't even look at a picture of a polled bull and not see that horrible old Giant bull. There is something about the eyes and the shape of the head that makes me shudder. Thus today for me there are a lot of blank pages in the Hereford World.

 

[KNERSIE]

I agree about Giant, but the two foundation sires of the Miles City herd weren't dandies either. I also agree about the eyes of many poll herefords, but elsewhere in the world breeders have recognised the problem and have corrected it along with a few problems found in horned animals too.

The only valid reason why horned cattle may have an advantage is the genetic tendency for polls to have a lazy prepuce, but for some reason this is a only a problem for horned hereford breeders while they are more than happy to overlook the problem in the angus bulls they run. I still say as long as its a hereford and not an angus I don't care if its horned or a poll. While this silly infighting continues angus will continue to make the gap in registrations bigger and bigger despite all their genetic defects.

 

[Brandonm22]

The registration gap doesn't bother me in the slightest. What does is looking at a straightbred herd of Angus..... commercial cattle which are becoming more and more the norm. Even here in hot humid southern conditions where one would think a crossbred cow would make a lot more sense.

 

[alacattleman]

The registration gap doesn't bother me in the slightest. What does is looking at a straightbred herd of Angus..... commercial cattle which are becoming more and more the norm. Even here in hot humid southern conditions where one would think a crossbred cow would make a lot more sense.

seems like every tom. dick and harry around me .that has commercial herd has a seperate one their starting of purebred angus... although im raising commercial angus for """"OUR MARKET""""... i dont want to be knee deep in em should things change

 

[Idaman]

To me the foundation sire of the horned Herefords is Anxiety 4th, at least in the US. I know there were lots of others that were used at that time and we had lots of them but absolutely the most influential was Anxiety 4th. That is one bull that from that early age and the impressions I got from text books and Hereford Journals, from which I learned to read, that I definitely could live with.

As for the Line 1's, I think they are absolutely wonderful cattle but I don't like them and have decided to eliminate any trace of them from our registered cattle. They are all going to town or to be used for recipients. The reason for this may be crazy but it's mine.

I believe that the L1's straightened out a lot of problems in horned Herefords and many of them were based on functionality and those were really very good. My argument against them is the same as it has been for 40 years. They have become so widely spread and used that there were dozens of other lines that were completely destroyed by their use and popularity. I am positive that they have almost single handedly destroyed the broad genetic base that there once was in the horned Herefords. Today just go out and try to find and establish a non-line 1 herd that is made up of those old genetics. I have done this and I am appauled by the difficulty if not impossibility of trying to find and establish a herd that is PURE old line genetics.

Another thing that has crossed my mind is that as Line 1's have increased in popularity Herefords in general have decreased in popularity. The growth patterns of the Angus and Line 1's have been very parallel for at least thirty years. I sure am not claiming that there are causes and effects here but the patterns are there.

My goal now is to establish some of those old genetics and in some very small way try to see that some non- line 1 line is preserved and doesn't go into extinction.

 

[JHH]

To me the foundation sire of the horned Herefords is Anxiety 4th, at least in the US. I know there were lots of others that were used at that time and we had lots of them but absolutely the most influential was Anxiety 4th. That is one bull that from that early age and the impressions I got from text books and Hereford Journals, from which I learned to read, that I definitely could live with.

As for the Line 1's, I think they are absolutely wonderful cattle but I don't like them and have decided to eliminate any trace of them from our registered cattle. They are all going to town or to be used for recipients. The reason for this may be crazy but it's mine.

I believe that the L1's straightened out a lot of problems in horned Herefords and many of them were based on functionality and those were really very good. My argument against them is the same as it has been for 40 years. They have become so widely spread and used that there were dozens of other lines that were completely destroyed by their use and popularity. I am positive that they have almost single handedly destroyed the broad genetic base that there once was in the horned Herefords. Today just go out and try to find and establish a non-line 1 herd that is made up of those old genetics. I have done this and I am appauled by the difficulty if not impossibility of trying to find and establish a herd that is PURE old line genetics.

Another thing that has crossed my mind is that as Line 1's have increased in popularity Herefords in general have decreased in popularity. The growth patterns of the Angus and Line 1's have been very parallel for at least thirty years. I sure am not claiming that there are causes and effects here but the patterns are there.

My goal now is to establish some of those old genetics and in some very small way try to see that some non- line 1 line is preserved and doesn't go into extinction.

There probably isnt but a handfull left is there?

Does Richard Day still have some straight Hazlett lines? Or has he totally bred to line one now?

What about the Mark Donald's Probably only a few there to.

Your going to leave the horns on them and not breed them off arent you?

 

[mrvictordomino]

Interesting comments, as a Polled breeder I have witnessed many good lines of cattle become "extinct"
over the past thirty years. Not by a paticular bloodline, but buy so many polled breeders partaking in the
"Bull of the month club". Our program is to preserve and improve the Victor Domino bloodline and not
let this line be deluted and or eventually lost. I would have liked for some other polled lines to have been
preserved and to have been viable options for today. Too many breeders today are not paying attention
to real needs of real cattlemen. Birthweight, fertility, mature cow size to name a few.

DM

 

[KNERSIE]

Interesting comments, as a Polled breeder I have witnessed many good lines of cattle become "extinct"
over the past thirty years. Not by a paticular bloodline, but buy so many polled breeders partaking in the
"Bull of the month club". Our program is to preserve and improve the Victor Domino bloodline and not
let this line be deluted and or eventually lost. I would have liked for some other polled lines to have been
preserved and to have been viable options for today. Too many breeders today are not paying attention
to real needs of real cattlemen. Birthweight, fertility, mature cow size to name a few.

DM

Tell us a bit more about your cattle, post a few pics, etc.

 

[Idaman]

There probably isnt but a handfull left is there?

Less than a handful. Outside of Jim Lents there isn't a decent sized herd anywhere.

Does Richard Day still have some straight Hazlett lines? Or has he totally bred to line one now?

From what I have heard Day still has quite a few straight Hazletts. There may be some opportunity there for straight old line genetics.

What about the Mark Donald's Probably only a few there to.

Bill Bennett may have a few plus some of the people he has cooperated with. I looked at a bunch owned by a man named Nord that at the time was cooperating with Bennett and had straight Donalds.

Your going to leave the horns on them and not breed them off arent you?[/quote]

We will definitely not dehorn these either physically or by selection. The only things we are committed to do is increase the numbers base and enhance functionality as much as possible without outcrossing the line. Once the few original animals are found with the modern technology of AI and ET the numbers can hopefully jump to a stable number pretty quickly. Once the numbers are OK we can really work on the functionality.

 

[JHH]

Idaman, will you use the 943 bull of Days? or is there not enough Hazlett influence? I dont think he is straight Hazlett. I think there is some canadian and line one both in his pedigree.

I would be interested in seeing what you have come up with. and what lines you have found and plan on using. You could just P.M. me if you like.

 

[mrvictordomino]

Interesting comments, as a Polled breeder I have witnessed many good lines of cattle become "extinct"
over the past thirty years. Not by a paticular bloodline, but buy so many polled breeders partaking in the
"Bull of the month club". Our program is to preserve and improve the Victor Domino bloodline and not
let this line be deluted and or eventually lost. I would have liked for some other polled lines to have been
preserved and to have been viable options for today. Too many breeders today are not paying attention
to real needs of real cattlemen. Birthweight, fertility, mature cow size to name a few.

DM

Tell us a bit more about your cattle, post a few pics, etc.

I am in the process of taking some updated pics, but you can view some of our bulls and females at www.jmsvictordomino.com
Will post some updated pictures hopefully this evening.

DM

 

[Baldie Maker]

I've made bad calls on here about the quality of animals, but I ask anyone to visit Dannie and see the consistency and functionality of the cattle he raises. I wish when I visited his place earlier this summer that I could of taken my camera because I would of had a camera full of pictures. Moderate, easy doing, functional cattle, with butts and guts is what I saw and I look forward to returning in the fall to see his cows with wet udders and would love to catch those sale bulls to see how they've grown before they head to the Fords.