Hobby farmers/ranchers and the beef industry

[Cheyenne]

Thank you everyone for the well wishes and support. I forgot to put in the first post, he is not military, he is working as a generator mechanic there supplying our troops with the electricity they need. So nothing too heroic about it. He feels he is just doing his duty.

Anyway, I did not mean to sound like I was coming down on Caustic for his opinion. I too have learned alot from reading his posts. Although, I do still scratch my cows. I have learned alot from reading here and asking a few questions now and then. I have a good mentor here too, so I don't need to ask too many questions here. I ask him my stupid questions, he gets a laugh, I get a good answer so it all works.

Also I wanted to say that it isn't just hobby farmers/ranchers who pay too much for things. I recently sold a hog to a neighbor and supposedly long time farmer. He offered me 25 cents a pound over market price for live butcher hogs, plus threw in gas money which I told him he didn't have to do. Did I turn down his offer? Heck no, I new a good deal when I heard it. The kicker is that after all of this he complained to everyone that I overcharged him for the hog. I won't be selling to him again.

So moral of this story, it's not just hobbyists that don't always know what they are doing.

 

[redfornow]

Thats one of the things I truely love about this board is that you can have an exchange of ideas, some right some wrong but all true thoughts.

But when something real comes up.

Well,
The crap just goes away.
Good place with good people.
Thanks all for makin it that way.

MD

 

[Alan]

Thank you Texan and Alan and la4angus. I forgot to put in the first post, he is not military, he is working as a generator mechanic there supplying our troops with the electricity they need. So nothing too heroic about it. He feels he is just doing his duty.

Plenty heroic about it, I don't need to remind you he's in harms way and away from his family.... same goes thank you and him.

Alan

 

[stocky]

I look at things completely different than many on this board. The people who are being branded as hobby people are the small acreage/small head count producers. I dont see how they affect any full time cattle people in a negative manner.
1. They dont add to the number of cattle going to market. Take a 1,000 acre farm that runs 500 cows. Divide it into 50 farms that are 20 acres each and take 3-5 of those acres out for a house, garden, yard, play area in each 20. Now you have 750 acres for 375 cows. You now run less cows than when the full time farmer had it. My entire area used to be large cattle farms, now it is cut up into hobby farmers and has less than half as many cows as before.
2. People say hobby farmers raise poor quality animals. How does that adversely affect you if you raise good animals? They are no competition for your good animals and their "poor quality" animals take up space and make less room for good animals, so you have less competition. I dont believe they all raise poor quality animals.
3. If it weren't for hobby farmers, half or more of all the feed stores and equipment dealers would be closed. Then how far would you have to go for feed or equipment or parts. Small hobby farmers buy small tractors and equipment. Full time farmers dont buy those, anyway. So what difference does it make to you except it keeps the dealership open so you can have service and a place close by to get parts.
5. For 15 years, I have bought 1500-1700 large round bales for 12-18 dollars per bale, depending on weather conditions. I dont buy my hay 20 bales here and 20 bales there. So what difference does it make to me if a hobby farmer wants to pay 30 dollars for 20 bales of hay. If 10 hobby farmers offer 30 dollars per bale for 20 bales each, the hay seller is not going to turn down my 1700 bale order to sell to them instead and then have to look for buyers for the other 1500 bales.
6. When the "hobby farmers" are selling their calves or cattle, they are at the mercy of the market. If they are cheap, buy those cattle and improve them and make money on them. When they are buying, if they are paying too much, sell to them, it will make you money. I have alot of friends and neighbors who come to me when it is time to sell their calves and I give them everything I will get at the market for their cattle. They know they will get a far better price from me than they will if they take them to the auction. I bunch them in groups and sell them. Because I gave them all they were worth, I dont make money on those calves, but I have never lost anything, because those same people are always ready to help or keep an eye out for strangers or just be good neighbors because we treat each other like we would want to be treated.
The fact of the matter is that the small so-called "hobby farmers" do not compete for the same products that the full time farmers compete for. They have to buy products, be the one that sells to them, if they pay too much.
The people I believe are dangerous to the full time farmer are the seed companies that have 100,000 sow operations just to test their seed, the millionaire businessmen who have 1,000 cows and everyone of them prime and flood the market with top quality beef at a big loss for income tax purposes. The 3,000 cow dairies for income tax purposes. Those are the people who damage us with flooding the market with top quality products at a loss to themselves. Even in those situations, try to become a supplier to them of something and you can make money. And on the other hand, if those people are losing money, someone is making money off of them, be that person and you wont be complaining about them losing money on their taxes.
There have been many pros and cons discussed here, and each has his or her point of view. I just dont think bashing the small or part time farmer is going to help any of the full time farmers put money into their own pocket. Sorry for the long post.

 

[kjones]

Very well put. :clap:

 

[Beef11]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I look at things completely different than many on this board. The people who are being branded as hobby people are the small acreage/small head count producers. I dont see how they affect any full time cattle people in a negative manner.
1. They dont add to the number of cattle going to market. Take a 1,000 acre farm that runs 500 cows. Divide it into 50 farms that are 20 acres each and take 3-5 of those acres out for a house, garden, yard, play area in each 20. Now you have 750 acres for 375 cows. You now run less cows than when the full time farmer had it. My entire area used to be large cattle farms, now it is cut up into hobby farmers and has less than half as many cows as before.
2. People say hobby farmers raise poor quality animals. How does that adversely affect you if you raise good animals? They are no competition for your good animals and their "poor quality" animals take up space and make less room for good animals, so you have less competition. I dont believe they all raise poor quality animals.
3. If it weren't for hobby farmers, half or more of all the feed stores and equipment dealers would be closed. Then how far would you have to go for feed or equipment or parts. Small hobby farmers buy small tractors and equipment. Full time farmers dont buy those, anyway. So what difference does it make to you except it keeps the dealership open so you can have service and a place close by to get parts.
5. For 15 years, I have bought 1500-1700 large round bales for 12-18 dollars per bale, depending on weather conditions. I dont buy my hay 20 bales here and 20 bales there. So what difference does it make to me if a hobby farmer wants to pay 30 dollars for 20 bales of hay. If 10 hobby farmers offer 30 dollars per bale for 20 bales each, the hay seller is not going to turn down my 1700 bale order to sell to them instead and then have to look for buyers for the other 1500 bales.
6. When the "hobby farmers" are selling their calves or cattle, they are at the mercy of the market. If they are cheap, buy those cattle and improve them and make money on them. When they are buying, if they are paying too much, sell to them, it will make you money. I have alot of friends and neighbors who come to me when it is time to sell their calves and I give them everything I will get at the market for their cattle. They know they will get a far better price from me than they will if they take them to the auction. I bunch them in groups and sell them. Because I gave them all they were worth, I dont make money on those calves, but I have never lost anything, because those same people are always ready to help or keep an eye out for strangers or just be good neighbors because we treat each other like we would want to be treated.
The fact of the matter is that the small so-called "hobby farmers" do not compete for the same products that the full time farmers compete for. They have to buy products, be the one that sells to them, if they pay too much.
The people I believe are dangerous to the full time farmer are the seed companies that have 100,000 sow operations just to test their seed, the millionaire businessmen who have 1,000 cows and everyone of them prime and flood the market with top quality beef at a big loss for income tax purposes. The 3,000 cow dairies for income tax purposes. Those are the people who damage us with flooding the market with top quality products at a loss to themselves. Even in those situations, try to become a supplier to them of something and you can make money. And on the other hand, if those people are losing money, someone is making money off of them, be that person and you wont be complaining about them losing money on their taxes.
There have been many pros and cons discussed here, and each has his or her point of view. I just dont think bashing the small or part time farmer is going to help any of the full time farmers put money into their own pocket. Sorry for the long post.

I have to agree for the most part. The post was so long i forgot if i disagreed with it anywhere. :lol: Thanks, good post

 

[redfornow]

Great post stocky,
Good points.
MD

 

[hopalong]

Excellent post Stocky one well thought out and one that states exactally what many of us "hobby" guys feel.

If the bulk of cattle producers have less than 50 head (I do)
I wonder if some most vocal protestors of US hobby guys are in the same boat. :shock: :shock: And are nothing more than HOBBIEST'S as well crying in their beer and pretending!!

 

[icandoit]

I have 70 acres, 23 acres in Jiggs, own a 1977 JD4630, a 1967 Ford 8N, a post hole digger, 2 hay spears, numerous other implements, and a big Christmas list.
I started with 3 commercial cows in 2002, I now have 12. I figure my max on cows should be about 20 to 24. Not rich, actually boderline poor after building my house. I'm taking it slow in building up my cow numbers, (i don't want or keep anything that I think is a bad calf). I have most of my infrastructure in place put there by good old hard work.
I'm so called retired but I've never worked this hard even being a Lineman but I love it. I do have 2 mentors to draw info from. So I guess what I'm trying to say is: Does this make me a hobby farmer?

Dick

PS: Caustic has offered his help with info on how to build up a Farm\Ranch on many occasions, even gave his cell phone number to call if I had any questions. Can't get a better friend than that even though I have never met the man. He's worth listening to.

 

[mitchwi]

I know I'm repeating myself, but wth... I am a small farmer, I don't consider my farming a hobby. I am in it for a few reasons, and 1 being to make a profit.

One of the biggest dilemmas as I see for the smaller farmers is the equipment/land chasing issue.

We have had to purchase our own equipment for a lot of things, that we used to hire custom. Because big farmers get bigger equipment, they are unable to navigate our smaller fields. Ok, we watch auctions, and try to buy good solid used equipment. So now we end up with equipment to run a farm 2 to 3 times as large as we have. We will try to buy more land, but as so many know, land prices are going higher and higher.

If it weren't for myself and hubby working outside of the farm, I don't see how this would be feasible.

I think there is a lot of insight on these boards, and I appreciate every one of them.

Michele

 

[Victoria]

For you that posted that "hobby" people drive up the price of hay, and tractors... I'll throw in land. You're right, but you don't hear the guys selling the product complain. It is an ever changing industry and you (we) as an industry need to realize it. If a hobby guy wants to pay you too much for hay or a tractor, take the money and smile. If a hobby guy wants to pay you too much for a bull or heifer, take advantage of it and smile. I don't think that Hobby people are influencing the price of cattle, I don't think we are changing the numbers of cattle going to market. It is a changing demographic, keep up or get left behind.

Alan

Bingo. It is changing and that is just the way it is. 80 cows out here used to be considered a small herd, now 50 is far more than most people have. Hobby farmers are here to stay and I think we will see more and more of them. aplusmnt had some great points and he's on the money about how hobby people can hurt us but you are also right we can take advantage of the fact that they pay more too. We just sold a heifer for more than we would have because a wife thought her markings were cute. I wasn't going to complain. I like most hobby ranchers, for the most part they are people who want to learn about the industry, make a little money doing it and they take good care of their animals. I am thinking of two people- the hobby person has 8 cows, really nice Red Angus (not pure) cows that I would put in my herd in a second. They feed them well, give them mineral and they are well taken care of. I think that they AI because I have never seen a bull. The other guy has about 200 cows. They are a sorry looking group for the most part, even when he buys a good one she looks pretty poor because she lacks proper nutrition. A bull is used and really his bulls are pretty good but the calves are brought up by cows that could use more taking care of. Which one do you think hurts the industry more? I know who I would rather sell my animals to. I don't think you can group all hobby ranchers together anymore than you can say that every operations with more than 100 cows is the same. Look at the individual not the group they are in.

 

[Victoria]

Thank you everyone for the well wishes and support. I forgot to put in the first post, he is not military, he is working as a generator mechanic there supplying our troops with the electricity they need. So nothing too heroic about it. He feels he is just doing his duty.

Anyway, I did not mean to sound like I was coming down on Caustic for his opinion. I too have learned alot from reading his posts. Although, I do still scratch my cows. I have learned alot from reading here and asking a few questions now and then. I have a good mentor here too, so I don't need to ask too many questions here. I ask him my stupid questions, he gets a laugh, I get a good answer so it all works.

Also I wanted to say that it isn't just hobby farmers/ranchers who pay too much for things. I recently sold a hog to a neighbor and supposedly long time farmer. He offered me 25 cents a pound over market price for live butcher hogs, plus threw in gas money which I told him he didn't have to do. Did I turn down his offer? Heck no, I new a good deal when I heard it. The kicker is that after all of this he complained to everyone that I overcharged him for the hog. I won't be selling to him again.

So moral of this story, it's not just hobbyists that don't always know what they are doing.

Any man in Iraq or Afghanistan right now is a hero, regardless of what job they are doing.
I thought the moral of your story was that there are jerks in every size of operation.

 

[backhoeboogie]

When big corps are making lots of money, they are not too concerned with how Mom and Pop convenience stores decide to operate. If they are not making money and the convenience store is, something has to change. Personally I don't care whether the big boys or little "hobby" guys in another state are using AI. It doesn't affect me much at all. I am certainly not offended by it.

 

[john250]

The people I believe are dangerous to the full time farmer are the seed companies that have 100,000 sow operations just to test their seed, the millionaire businessmen who have 1,000 cows and everyone of them prime and flood the market with top quality beef at a big loss for income tax purposes. The 3,000 cow dairies for income tax purposes. Those are the people who damage us with flooding the market with top quality products at a loss to themselves. Even in those situations, try to become a supplier to them of something and you can make money. And on the other hand, if those people are losing money, someone is making money off of them, be that person and you wont be complaining about them losing money on their taxes.

Tax dodgers are the only "hobbyists" I resent. And I only resent them when they are buying up land. They can buy all the high priced cattle they want. I love a high price cattle market.
Sooner or later they have to show a profit to the IRS.
Commercial cattle need cheap land. In Indiana, cattle are relegated to the south part of the state and to the "waste" acres in the north. Corn, beans, hogs and houses dominate the "prime" land up on the prairie. They can pay higher rents and still make money.
I hate to see the bigger units chopped up into small units, but the economics tell me that the trend will continue. Lots of folks can write a check for $100 K for 20 acres, but not many can write a check (or even finance) for 1000 acres @ $2250. The small units aren't very efficient. In agriculture, volume is everything.
Most "real" or "serious" farmers have someone working in town these days. I guess a good question would be what percent of your income comes on a 1040F versus some other form.
If you're keeping 2 cows or 2,000 you have the same concerns with environmental regulation, taxes, PETA, etc.

 

[aplusmnt]

To flip things around we might look at some ways the Hobby guy helps the agriculture industry and economy.

1. They most likely over feed cattle. Which is a big boost to feed stores. I bet Crowder loves the Hobby guys.

2. Since they are less likely to be watching expenses they spend more at the Tractor Supply.

3. They buy more cowboy hats improving Stetson's stock.

4. Increased profit in the cowboy boot industry Justin loves them.

5. Buy more Pick up trucks, Auto manufactures love them.

6. Stimulated the market for under 50 hp tractors. Kubota loves them. Will even sell them a package deal on a trailer.

7. The buy more Honda Rancher 4-Wheelers to patrol the 5 acres. Honda loves them.

8. They keep this website moving along and interesting :lol:

 

[Mosho]

C. Holland, I agree with you on every point except your football team.
This should not be considered as a affront to anyone. It is just my opinion. Small and Large are relative. When we owned 2 angusxholstens cows and 5 acres, we thought someone with 25 head and 50 acres was a big farmer. When we were in Texas and knew people with thousands of cows and acres, then 50 head of cows looked pretty small. You know what, our 2 cows were just as important to us and we took just as much pride in producing a good product as anyone. We continue to educate ourselves on good management practices and herd improvement. We are serious but not big farmers. We own 80 acres of land and 22 brood cows after some hard culling. Now we could have divided this land into lots and sold it or put a mobile home park here or many other options but the land had always been in agriculture and is in an agricultural area. We chose to keep it in agriculture. We did not choose cattle because we were fulfilling a dream to be cowboys. Cattleman,don't flatter yourselves that everyone wants to be just like you. I don't own a horse, guitar or a ten gallon hat and don't have a desire to do so. I'm content to spend my retirement years trying to use my land as productively as I can. It's my land, my cows and my choice and I am not hurting those who would consider themselves "big time" ranchers or farmers. Besides, raising cattle and continuing the learning process is better than sitting in a rocking chair and giving in to senility.

 

[backhoeboogie]

3. They buy more cowboy hats improving Stetson's stock.

Good point. Felt is not worn after Easter but you see folks wearing them these days. Leddy likes that I am sure.

 

[L Weir]

But I would like someone to seriuosly tell me the negitive impact a hobby cattle person has on the beef industry.

Thanks,
Alan

4. Breeding Animal prices. Hobby guys can push up the cost of say a bred cow, or bred heifer because they do not bid with profit in mind they bid higher either out of no understanding of the market or they do not care just want her because the want her.

Don't forget bragging rights for being the high bidder or a high volume bidder at production sales.

 

[kjones]

I'm not real sure where I fit in to the whole "hobby" thing. Although I don't consider myself a rancher, I don't consider it a hobby either. I have cattle for two reasons. One, beef for my family's consumption. Two, I sell beet to friends. Not to make a large profit, but to help with expenses like fencing supplies and equipment maintenance. I hay about thirty five acres for basically the same reason. Some we use some I sell to cover the cost of baling,( don't own a baler ). This does keep the property in the open spaces tax program also, but that isn't the original intent, just an added bonus. I have horses also so I would hay anyway. I am currently down to only five cattle from twelve. A poor hay year due to lack of rain caused this. I don't over feed, so the feed store doesn't get a boost. Don't have a tractor supply store here, but there is a Del's store opening soon. ( tractor supply owns Del's). Have Ariat's not Justin's. My truck is a 2000, that I bought used. My 34hp tractor was new because I couldn't find a used one in three states except those gray market jobs, or ones people thought were made of gold. I am by far not rich. I make no profit from this, every cent goes back into the place and animals, and I'm fine with that. I really don't think I am a threat of any kind to a large operation, and I don't care what anyone thinks of my place or my animals, but I do appreciate advice and help as long as it is genuine and not some one just being a jackass.
So thanks to all who are here to be helpful.
kjones.

 

[gberry]

I just don't quite understand what tax breaks have to do with anything. I doubt anyone seriously buys equipment or land to get a tax break and here's why. First of all if your in say the 35% tax bracket, spending $100,000 on a tractor is only knocking $35,000 off your tax bill. Who would spend $100,000 to save $35,000. I doubt it would be anyone who had enough business sense to have that type of disposable income in the first place.

Some folks act like spending large chunks of money is beneficial from a tax standpoint, but I disagree. I can't figure where you ever come out ahead by spending money strictly for tax purposes.