herefords: horned vs. polled

[Tod Dague]

That's correct. If I remember correctly Bos Indicus can carry a "wild horn gene" like some cattle carry the scur gene.

Homozygous for a trait means that both genes of the pair for that trait are the same. It would be possible, but not likely, to breed two heterozygous polled hanimals and get a homozygous polled calf. I'm not any good at the math but I think it's like 1 in four because those are the possible combinations I think.

dun

 

[greenwillowherefords]

We have had 80% smooth polled calves when breeding the horned bull to polled cows.

My point is that you can't predict as accurately the presence of the polled trait in the offspring of those calves, can you? You may have polled calves, but they are less true for the polled trait.

...... except you still have a purebred Hereford.

In my opinion what you have is a crossbred that is red with a white face. A crossbred with less predictability for either the Horned or Polled trait.

The thickness of body created by the Hazlett Victor cross needs to be seen to be appreciated.

I think that when somebody makes the decision to buy a Hereford bull, the next decision they make is whether they want a Horned or a Polled. Carcass and performance traits are selected for after they make the H/P decision.

My point seems simple to me, but maybe I'm confused. Its been 12 or 14 years since I've looked for Hereford bulls. Do Hereford breeders still sell to the commercial cattleman, with a crossbred cowherd, that may have a preference for Horned or Polled in their calf crop? Because it seems to me that some of you are mixing what I consider to be two separate breeds.

Since polled Herefords were developed from naturally occurring mutations within horned Herefords, and from the beginning, they have had that blood flowing through their veins, I don't see how they are not the same breed. The association sure thinks so, and even in Miles City, Line 1 headquarters, they have an occasional polled mutation. If you are breeding to a polled breed like Angus, it shouldn't matter. If it does, you can trace the pedigree for horns. The time has come for carcass, efficiency, disposition, and longevity of life to reign supreme, regardless of horn status, in my humble opinion.

 

[Texan]

Since polled Herefords were developed from naturally occurring mutations within horned Herefords, and from the beginning, they have had that blood flowing through their veins, I don't see how they are not the same breed.

So. Hmmm...... Red Angus are the same breed as Angus. Red Brangus are the same breed as Brangus........

If you are breeding to a polled breed like Angus, it shouldn't matter. If it does, you can trace the pedigree for horns.

I have never mentioned breeding to Angus. As far as tracing pedigrees goes, I would think that the small, commercial cow-calf operator buying a Polled Hereford would expect that to have been done by the breeder! I expect that the majority of cattle operations in this country are one bull outfits. Many of us don't have the ability or the desire to trace pedigrees. We count on reputable breeders to do that for us. Maybe that's wrong, but it seems to me like that's the way it is!

The time has come for carcass, efficiency, disposition, and longevity of life to reign supreme, regardless of horn status, in my humble opinion.

I don't disagree about the importance of those traits. When you say "regardless of horn status," I guess that means you feel the same about hide color? Sounds like maybe you would prefer a one breed world? We could call it the GreenWillow Breed?

 

[Frankie]

Help me out. Since the Hereford Assn has merged with the Polled Herefrod Assn isn't "crossbreeding" allowed? Wouldn't there then be polled bulls (bulls without horns) that carry the horn gene? I had always assumed that Polled Herefords were like Angus, that when bred to a horned cow the calves would be polled? But I've never been quite sure about what happens with the merger of the two Associations. Thanks for any info....

 

[ollie]

Help me out. Since the Hereford Assn has merged with the Polled Herefrod Assn isn't "crossbreeding" allowed? Wouldn't there then be polled bulls (bulls without horns) that carry the horn gene? I had always assumed that Polled Herefords were like Angus, that when bred to a horned cow the calves would be polled? But I've never been quite sure about what happens with the merger of the two Associations. Thanks for any info....

As far as I know the polled assn. has always allowed a polled animal even homozygus or heterozygus as long as it was polled. The animal could have originated with a horned cow or bull as a parent before the merger. I think....

 

[greenwillowherefords]

Since polled Herefords were developed from naturally occurring mutations within horned Herefords, and from the beginning, they have had that blood flowing through their veins, I don't see how they are not the same breed.

So. Hmmm...... Red Angus are the same breed as Angus. Red Brangus are the same breed as Brangus........

If you are breeding to a polled breed like Angus, it shouldn't matter. If it does, you can trace the pedigree for horns.

I have never mentioned breeding to Angus. As far as tracing pedigrees goes, I would think that the small, commercial cow-calf operator buying a Polled Hereford would expect that to have been done by the breeder! I expect that the majority of cattle operations in this country are one bull outfits. Many of us don't have the ability or the desire to trace pedigrees. We count on reputable breeders to do that for us. Maybe that's wrong, but it seems to me like that's the way it is!

The time has come for carcass, efficiency, disposition, and longevity of life to reign supreme, regardless of horn status, in my humble opinion.

I don't disagree about the importance of those traits. When you say "regardless of horn status," I guess that means you feel the same about hide color? Sounds like maybe you would prefer a one breed world? We could call it the GreenWillow Breed?

Allow me to clarify. The horn status is a within the breed comment.
As a breeder, I tell my customers up front about the horned genetics. If they don't want them, I have other selections that don't carry them, or I have friends who use only 4th generation polled whom I can recommend.
Have a good day friend!

 

[certherfbeef]

The horned and polled associations merged because of financial difficulties in one of the associations, so I am told.

If you ask a horned breeder it was the polls that couldn't keep the books.
If you ask a polled breeder it was the horns that went under.

But, rather than letting one association fizzle out, they decided to merge.

 

[Texan]

As a breeder, I tell my customers up front about the horned genetics. If they don't want them, I have other selections that don't carry them, or I have friends who use only 4th generation polled whom I can recommend.

Thanks! That's what I've been wanting to hear somebody say, GW! That you, the breeder, will help me, the buyer, make an informed decision so that I will get what I want in a bull! If I'm looking for polled calves out of my horned cows, it seems to me that the closer to a true polled bull I can get, the better chances I have.

 

[dun]

I personally would hate to see the Horned Hereford vanish. I don't want to use one, but they are impressive in someones elses pasture when they leave the horns on them. But I'm old fashioned anyway. I hate the solid red and solid black Simmenthals. My preference is still for the old traditional marked red and whites.

dun

 

[Craig-TX]

I'll agree with that. Must be sentimentality because we quit all horned cattle but I still love to see them.

Craig-TX

 

[dun]

Don't let anyone know this, but I like to see Longhorns too. In someone elses pasture!

dun

 

[Texan]

One more question from the Texas nitwit who remains somewhat confused. And I realize the possibility, rather the probability, that I will die in that confused, nitwit state of mind, so no comments are needed on that. Both of these quotes came from this thread:

I am a registered Hereford breeder. I cross horned Turner Ranch Hazlett bloodlines with polled Victors, and the results are terrific. I have been told that horned bulls throw easier birthing calves because their heads are smaller!

.....I've found the polled calves are born a little easier then horned. That appears to me to be strictly because of the head shape. Polled heads are generally narrower, horned are wider at the ears.

Logic and common sense about head shape tell me that Dun is correct about this. My personal experiences also tell me that Dun is correct. I guess what I'm wondering is if that is not correct after all. In other words, are the horned calves actually easier to deliver? Your thoughts?

 

[Campground Cattle]

I am not saying there are not easy calving horned but typically polled have the easier time calving. My only problem has been when Brahman is introduced and the calves were just to big. Lost a few that waya few years ago, didn't take long to change.

 

[Ellie May]

POLLED!
Just makes life easier, that's what they were bred for.
Ellie May
[email protected]
http://www.freewebs.com/harmonybackstreetanimalfarm/

 

[greenwillowherefords]

I personally would hate to see the Horned Hereford vanish. I don't want to use one, but they are impressive in someones elses pasture when they leave the horns on them. But I'm old fashioned anyway. I hate the solid red and solid black Simmenthals. My preference is still for the old traditional marked red and whites.

dun

I notice that no one from Montana or Wyoming has commented about doing away with horns. Is it possible that there are still some areas of the country where range conditions and predators make horns a relevant self-defense tool?

 

[Tod Dague]

I raise Red Angus and I had a neighbor that raised Long Horns. He was having a lot of problems with wild dogs. My cattle tended to gang up and chase the dogs off. When it comes to a 1200 lbs. cow and a dog, horns aren't going to make much of a difference in the out come it's the willingness of the cow to defend herself.

I personally would hate to see the Horned Hereford vanish. I don't want to use one, but they are impressive in someones elses pasture when they leave the horns on them. But I'm old fashioned anyway. I hate the solid red and solid black Simmenthals. My preference is still for the old traditional marked red and whites.

dun

I notice that no one from Montana or Wyoming has commented about doing away with horns. Is it possible that there are still some areas of the country where range conditions and predators make horns a relevant self-defense tool?

 

[Tod Dague]

I agree! The biggest problem is keeping my wife from buying one.

Don't let anyone know this, but I like to see Longhorns too. In someone elses pasture!

dun

 

[txag]

wow, i go away for a few days & miss all kinds of stuff.

let me see what i can add or stir up.

we have been raising registered polled herefords for over 30 years. i remember when i was a kid, we would occasionally have a bull pop a scur, but we never had any horns. i can't remember even having any scurs for the last 20 years or so.....only polled. i also cannot recall any of our bull customers mentioning any horned offspring from our bulls.

after the merger of the two associations, breeders began outcrossing (not crossbreeding) between the horned & polled lines. since then, there seems to be more incidents of scurs in these crosses as well as polled cattle that are carriers of the horned gene. we did not choose to do this and continue to breed only polled herefords. imo, there is enough quality in the polled cattle lines that we don't have to use horned lines. don't get me wrong, there are very good horned cattle out there, but i think there are equally good polled herefords & our goal is to produce polled cattle.

as for homozygous.....yes, polled herefords can be homozygous (nothing to do w/4 generations). homozygous means that both genes for that trait are the same. polled is dominant & for my discussion i'll use a capital P for polled & a lowercase p for horned. if you have a homozygous polled bull, PP, he will only throw polled calves, no matter what he's bred to (except some brahmans). if you have a heterozygous bull, Pp & breed him to horned cows, pp, half of the calves will be horned & half will be polled (on average). if you have a horned bull, pp, & breed him to horned cows (all, pp), all the calves will be horned, pp (except for a possible mutation). if you have a heterozygous polled bull, Pp (the polled trait will show because polled is dominant but the horned gene will still be there) & breed him to heterozygous polled cows, Pp (polled because of the dominant P gene but carrying the horned gene), 1/4 of the calves will be homozygous polled (& this will breed true) PP, 1/2 of the calves will be polled but carry the horned gene Pp, and 1/4 of the calves will be horned, pp. it's easiest to see this if set up in a punnett square. the polled/horned genes are just like the black/red color genes as far as inheritance goes. polled & black are dominant & red & horned are recessive. w/color, there are separate genes for spotting & white face & diluting but the basic colors of black & red are still there.

 

[dun]

One of the Polled Hereford breeders with a slightly different outlook on things discusses scurs on his website. He maintaines that some significant possible contributers to the breed have been elimiated by not using them for breeding.
My only personal problem with scurs it the way they bleed when they eventually get torn off. We've never had a scurred cow that didn't tear them off by the time they were 4-5 years old.

dun

 

[txag]

He maintaines that some significant possible contributers to the breed have been elimiated by not using them for breeding.

dun

i'll buy the idea that that probably happened at the start of the polled hereford breed when selection was pretty much based on polled or horned. today, i think the polled herefords have a big enough gene pool and enough quality animals to choose from that there's not much more you could find in a scurred animal except scurs.