herefords: horned vs. polled
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TexasCountryWoman
Well-known member
I completely agree, txshowmom. I "organically, naturally, and humanly" poll my cattle by the "genetic" method: A polled bull! Why breed horns into cattle then cruelly cut them off or leave them on just to have an accident waiting to happen? You horned people can have the horns, I'll keep my sweet round-heads. Much rather deal with them especially when I need to mess with newborns out in the pasture. This sounds like old hat already. :cboy:
Thank you, I respect your opinion. When we select cows for our operation we first look at quality, and when if we can't decide on an animal we choose the polled one if there is a polled one. We alway "try" to use a polled bull in our commercial herd. There are a few polled Brahman but they are few and far between.
A
Anonymous
I am a registered Hereford breeder. I cross horned Turner Ranch Hazlett bloodlines with polled Victors, and the results are terrific. I have been told that horned bulls throw easier birthing calves because their heads are smaller! At any rate, we never pulled a calf out of my Hazlett bull, and about half were first calf heifers. I now have a big awesome polled bull, and we'll see what happens with his calves. The color is due to selection. I guess polled breeders over the years tended to like darker colors.
TheBullLady
Well-known member
txshowmom.. you've been lucky! I've run a lot of polled bulls on my Brahmans, and will still get some horned calves.
Texan
Well-known member
I guess I'm missing something. If I'm looking for a Hereford bull to put with my cow, I would probably want either a Horned or a Polled. And I would expect that trait to be homozygous. Wouldn't that be a normal expectation from the Hereford breeder's customer?greenwillowherefords":zrmrvgr3 said:
certherfbeef
Well-known member
OK Texan, I'll take the bait. Just keep in mind that I'm not argueing with you. This has the potential to be an intelligent and informative discussion.
Just my thoughts here, I don't think you can get a homozyguos polled hereford. If you trace that animal back to the begining there is horns there somewhere. Therefore not being like the angus, you cannot get a homozygous polled animal. Only heterozygous.
Then there are scurrs to consider. It takes 2 alleles(sp) to get a scurred heifer. Which means one has to come from each parent. I have used a polled bull on a polled cow and gotten scurs. I have also used a polled bull on a horned cow and gotten only scurs.
On the other hand, I have used a polled bull on a horned cow and got a polled heifer. But this year, same mateing, i have horns. I also have a Radier cow that is polled as you can get. She will always throw scurs when used on anything that even looks remotely wide polled.
My genetics are a good bit rusty, it has been several years, but the hereford's white face is a dominate trait. The polled head is a genetic mutation that can always show up a little wider than planned. Someone get Txag in here. There will be the intelligence on the topic!
certherfbeef
Well-known member
I'm sorry, I told you my genetics were rusty.
Just talked to Jack Ward, he said even in the herefords the polled gene is still dominant. It is possible to have a homozygous polled hereford bull. And when he is used on a horned cow, should like the angus, throw a polled calf. BUT, that calf can throw either horns or polled.
Sorry for the mistake, learn something new everyday.
Campground Cattle
Well-known member
certherfbeef":36xz6ewm said:
Now Cert my genetics are pretty rusty too, correct me if I'm wrong to be considered homozyguos means that four generations removed have been polled.
certherfbeef
Well-known member
Camp, I started to ask Jack Ward that question, but guess I never got that answer. Sorry, I'm just a dumb farmer, not a good detective.
For all of those that want to hear Jack explain, the number to the hereford assoc is (816)842-3757 ask for Jack Ward
Campground Cattle
Well-known member
certherfbeef":2bdqv4wl said:
If I remember my biology right the definition for homozygous comes from having two recessive genes that become the dominant trait. Like I said for cattle to be considered homozygous I thought it was a trait removed 4 or 7 generations . Come on txag, La4, texan, Craig get in here and help me on this one
Homozygous for a trait means that both genes of the pair for that trait are the same. It would be possible, but not likely, to breed two heterozygous polled hanimals and get a homozygous polled calf. I'm not any good at the math but I think it's like 1 in four because those are the possible combinations I think.
dun
dun
Campground Cattle
Well-known member
dun":18n48eiw said:
Again if I remember my biology you are correct on the one in four combo's
Campground Cattle":29ej5anq said:
While I was out trying to turn the driveway back into a driveway instead of a creek bed, I got to thinking:
Bull Cow Calf
h h Homozygous horned
h P Heterozygous Polled
P h Heteerozygous Polled
P P Homozygous Polled
I think that's all of the possibilities for honred and polled. This is assuming heterozygous bull and cow.
dun
greenwillowherefords
Well-known member
Texan":bt5jgihf said:
We have had 80% smooth polled calves when breeding the horned bull to polled cows. The reason for crossing is that you get a genetic kick out of crossing bloodlines that are that far removed. It is the same principle that you use to create black-baldies, except you still have a purebred Hereford. The thickness of body created by the Hazlett Victor cross needs to be seen to be appreciated. I wish I was good enough to know how to download some pictures!
Texan
Well-known member
My point is that you can't predict as accurately the presence of the polled trait in the offspring of those calves, can you? You may have polled calves, but they are less true for the polled trait.greenwillowherefords":2elacs2f said:
In my opinion what you have is a crossbred that is red with a white face. A crossbred with less predictability for either the Horned or Polled trait.greenwillowherefords":2elacs2f said:
I think that when somebody makes the decision to buy a Hereford bull, the next decision they make is whether they want a Horned or a Polled. Carcass and performance traits are selected for after they make the H/P decision.greenwillowherefords":2elacs2f said:
My point seems simple to me, but maybe I'm confused. Its been 12 or 14 years since I've looked for Hereford bulls. Do Hereford breeders still sell to the commercial cattleman, with a crossbred cowherd, that may have a preference for Horned or Polled in their calf crop? Because it seems to me that some of you are mixing what I consider to be two separate breeds.
We have around 4-5 Polled Hereford breeders in this area. They breed strictly Polled animals. I would think that if you look back at a bulls pedigree if you don't see anything but polled that the odds are he's going to sire polled calves.
There is an algorithym of how many horned cows you need to breed a bull to that will determine with something like 99% certainty that he is homozygous polled. To be honred cows they would have to be homozygous horned. Now they may be able to check with a DNA sample.
In the AI catalogs frequently they'll list a bull as being double polled. All that specifies is that his dam and sire were polled, makes no claims as to homozygous or not.
The only wildcard I see is the same mutation that brought about Polled Herefords.
dun
There is an algorithym of how many horned cows you need to breed a bull to that will determine with something like 99% certainty that he is homozygous polled. To be honred cows they would have to be homozygous horned. Now they may be able to check with a DNA sample.
In the AI catalogs frequently they'll list a bull as being double polled. All that specifies is that his dam and sire were polled, makes no claims as to homozygous or not.
The only wildcard I see is the same mutation that brought about Polled Herefords.
dun
