Help Please !

[KNERSIE]

Wouldn't the grandsire granddaughter mating be less inbreeding than the sire daughter mating?

I would expect the grandsire granddaughter mating to be the safer option.

The reason I suggested a completely unrelated bull was not because I don't understand the goals of linebreeding or that I am against it myself, its just that I think this type of breeding should be left for the experienced guys who know what they are doing and are in the seedstock business and the outcross breeding would be safer for the less experienced breeders. They can gain from the breeding methods of the more experienced breeders by breeding to linebred bulls without running any risks in trying to linebreed themselves.

 

[Herefordcross]

Line breeding= works for some, appauling to others!

 

[Joy in Texas]

Well,I tried to put a picture of her in here but I haven't figured that one out yet. so anyway I put one of her in the gallery so take a look .Her name is Tama and she's 16 months old. I still don't understand everything but thanks for all of your help. All I can remember when I was a little kid. Grandpa use to take the inbred to the sale barn. You know like they had a disease or something. Looking at this heifer I don't see anything wrong with her. So, I'm looking forward to her calving. Update in 9 months.

 

[backhoeboogie]

I found her in the gallery. I like her looks. Don't know how many nickels you spent, none of my business either, but I bet she does a good job for you. Congratulations.

 

[Joy in Texas]

Thanks Boogie. well she was 1000. but the lady thought she was already bred. Not a problem cause she gave some breaks on others that I bought.

 

[Alan]

The problems begin when you do a grand sire to grand daughter.

Alan

this is even more ridiculous than the first issue.

do yall just make htis stuff up to make me laugh? :lol:

I'm serious about my statement, glad I could make you laugh, please elaborate on your thoughts of this being ridiculous.

Alan

 

[Alan]

Wouldn't the grandsire granddaughter mating be less inbreeding than the sire daughter mating?

I would expect the grandsire granddaughter mating to be the safer option.

The reason I suggested a completely unrelated bull was not because I don't understand the goals of linebreeding or that I am against it myself, its just that I think this type of breeding should be left for the experienced guys who know what they are doing and are in the seedstock business and the outcross breeding would be safer for the less experienced breeders. They can gain from the breeding methods of the more experienced breeders by breeding to linebred bulls without running any risks in trying to linebreed themselves.

My thoughts is that is is more of a in/line breeding (sire to daughter, then same sire back to grandaughter). From what I learned from my bit of research was that you see a lot more of the flawed genetics come out.

Anyway from what I feel I have learned I wouldn't hesitate to breed sire to daughter for commerical use.

Alan

 

[Joy in Texas]

Alan
I'm not saying anything about your comments being ridiculous. I can't help what others think. I see what you are saying and that was my main concern. Because her father is also her grandfather. If the lady would have followed through on the breeding of Tama. She would have been bred to a half brother.To me that would have really messed up her calf. Thats why I was asking .I don't know anything about line breeding. With the heifer being a beefmaster. I can see alot more brahma in her. And I take it its because of her inbreeding. I bred her to a totally different bloodline.And now I just have to wait and see what happens. Thank you Alan for your help.

 

[BAGTIC]

Aero has it right.

Inbreeding (linebreeding) is not inherently good or bad. Good genes in, good genes out. Bad genes in, bad genes out. Inbreeding does not create any defective genes. It merely concentrates the genetic characteristics in a single animal so that recessive genes that are undesirable can be identified and the carriers culled.

A lot of ranchers are afraid of the defects coming through because it could mean lost profits because of a defective calf. OTOH a breeder is looking for those defects so they can be eliminated. Unfortunately a lot of ranchers are concerned with the short term results at the expense of the desired long term results, a healthy herd without carriers of bad genetics.

I believe part of the problem is that many people confuse human morality, or what passes for it nowdays, with genetics. One is sociology, the other is biology. In cattle breeding we only have to concern ourselves with the biology.

 

[Aero]

[please elaborate on your thoughts of this being ridiculous.

Alan

one simple way to look at this is using Coefficient of Inbreeding (CIB). CIB is just a numerical representation of how inbred an animal is. As this number gets larger, you have more and more homozygous gene pairs. when recessive genes become homozygous they are then able to be expressed. when they are expressed, many things can show up that would normally be covered up by the heterozygous gene pair. Simply put, the larger the CIB, the more likelihood of having recessive genes stacked and expressed.

An outcross mating that has no animals in common between the parents will have a CIB of 0.0%. A grandsire-granddaughter mating => 12.5% CIB. A sire-daughter mating (as stated in the original post) => 25.0%.

Even more simply put, the sire-daughter mating is twice as likely to show a recessive gene as a grandsire-granddaughter mating.

basic CIB explanation: http://www.tenset.co.uk/fspeed/

 

[Aero]

[Posted for Joy in Texas]

Joy:
when you go to the gallery, click on the picture you want to post.

then go down below the picture and click "copy to clipboard".

go back to the message board and reply to post

then click in the textbox of your post and press Ctrl+V (or Edit > Paste) and then Submit.

 

[MikeC]

EEEEwwwwwwwwwwww! She looks "Inbred"!

Just kidding. She is a fine animal.

 

[Aero]

I believe part of the problem is that many people confuse human morality, or what passes for it nowdays, with genetics. One is sociology, the other is biology. In cattle breeding we only have to concern ourselves with the biology.

a very well articulated point.

another interesting thing about this concept is that cattle, especially linebred cattle, are much more genetically refined than humans. for the vast majority of the population, we just roam the countryside looking for a mate that will stay with us and make us smile (sometimes just for the night). i wouldnt call these criteria "stringent". :lol:

A rancher is going to look at past performance and will only keep females that are out of his best producing females. A linebreeder stacks pedigrees looking for defects and undesirable hidden traits. And only the best males get to breed the top females that have been retained. And this is compunded over many generations.

if humans were treated like cattle, 99% of us would be culled and sent to hamburger heaven before ever breeding again.

 

[AngusLimoX]

we just roam the countryside looking for a mate that will stay with us and make us smile (sometimes just for the night).

Now THIS is my kinda talk!!!

if humans were treated like cattle, 99% of us would be culled and sent to hamburger heaven before ever breeding again.

I think a German guy named Adolf beat you to that idea Aero! :lol:

Great posts Aero and others, for someone like me that can't study this stuff, the more I expose myself to it, some just sinks in.

I am not really up on earred cattle, but that looks like a solid easy keeping and feminine heifer Joy. Good Luck with her.

 

[aplusmnt]

I always figured line-breeding/in-breeding got a bad name because of some farmers with poor quality cattle using Poor quality Bulls and letting them breed their own daughter, then granddaughters in the herds for years because they would not get a fresh bull.

Then the bad genetics started multiplying till you get some problems.

This is a lot different than what Cattleman are doing that are trying to improve their herd by using it as a tool instead of poor management.

 

[Joy in Texas]

Hey Aero Thanks alot .I think I got this photo thing down. And thanks for all the info. It more since to me after reading it a couple of times. I just didn't want her having some kind of a freak.

 

[Aero]

I always figured line-breeding/in-breeding got a bad name because of some farmers with poor quality cattle using Poor quality Bulls and letting them breed their own daughter, then granddaughters in the herds for years because they would not get a fresh bull.

for the record, this is not linebreeding. this is laziness w/ a high CIB. linebreeding is intentional and planned. anything else is just breeding.

I just didn't want her having some kind of a freak.

still a possibility. ;-)

 

[Joy in Texas]

AERO THANK YOU THANK YOU ..I think I got this picture thing down anyway. This is the bull I bred Tama to.

 

[aplusmnt]

I always figured line-breeding/in-breeding got a bad name because of some farmers with poor quality cattle using Poor quality Bulls and letting them breed their own daughter, then granddaughters in the herds for years because they would not get a fresh bull.

for the record, this is not linebreeding. this is laziness w/ a high CIB. linebreeding is intentional and planned. anything else is just breeding.

I just didn't want her having some kind of a freak.

still a possibility. ;-)

It would be in-Breeding wouldn't it? That is why I also put that in the sentence.

 

[redfornow]

The problems begin when you do a grand sire to grand daughter.

Alan

this is even more ridiculous than the first issue.

do yall just make htis stuff up to make me laugh? :lol:

The short answer is YES