Grab the popcorn and your brass knuckles!

[Stocker Steve]

.

Do your Herfs have curly coats?

Quite a lot of them do have curly hair but a higher % just have a lot of straight hair.

My curly herfs with have snow on their backs after a storm. Not so for most of the blacks. I have a couple bwf that retained the curly coat also.

Bragging up the Simi angus weaning weight is a hot trend here. I have 3 neighbors who had been going that way AND retaining their own heifers. One has now gone back to all English due to too many open cows... The other two feed quality alfalfa mix upland hay.

I also have a few Simi angus crosses. Very nice looking cows in the summer, but most winter just OK on residue and a couple winter poorly. It makes a guy wonder just how much extra they eat for that larger weanling. The best thing is folks currently pay $1400 to $1500 for big black culls. :banana:

 

[Mr. Greenjeans]

The replies so far have been informative and for the most part congenial. There always seems to be a calling to promote what we are familiar with, whether it be for self-promotion or just for arguments sake from a contrarians standpoint. I am still hoping for a all-in effort to consider some of the underutilized breeds. We might all consider using them if there was someone within a 300 mile radius who raised quality animals from the "minor" breeds. Some to consider: Aubrac, Gelbvieh, Murray Grey, Salers, Senepol, Red Poll, Tarentaise, British White, Irish Black, Bazadais, Marchigiana, South Devon

If you had to move your operation to an entirely new environment, where would that be and what new breed would you choose? :compute:

 

[Taurus]

If I were going to the south, I would using Brahman bulls over Hereford cows then keeping F1 tiger stripes and let a Char bull running with the tiger stripes.

 

[Isomade]

The replies so far have been informative and for the most part congenial. There always seems to be a calling to promote what we are familiar with, whether it be for self-promotion or just for arguments sake from a contrarians standpoint. I am still hoping for a all-in effort to consider some of the underutilized breeds. We might all consider using them if there was someone within a 300 mile radius who raised quality animals from the "minor" breeds. Some to consider: Aubrac, Gelbvieh, Murray Grey, Salers, Senepol, Red Poll, Tarentaise, British White, Irish Black, Bazadais, Marchigiana, South Devon

If you had to move your operation to an entirely new environment, where would that be and what new breed would you choose? :compute:

Though I have no experience with them whatsoever, I really like the moderate size, and excellent quality I have seen from the Murray Gray posters on this board. Gray calves sell exceptionally well here anyway. I could see them doing well as steers and retained heifers.

 

[LauraleesFarm]

The problem with the "minor" breeds you listed is that.....they are minor....and for a reason. It is difficult for a minor breed to develop excellence in genetics due to low numbers being bred and utilized. With that, the gene pool is limited, and the quality that is widely available is not generally going to be that good. You may find one or two nice ones but not enough to really make a good herd.

This leads us to the question of.....why are they minor breeds? If they are such great animals, then why doesn't everyone have them? So there's your answer.

I have crossbred and commercial cattle and that is my preference. I have purebred registered bulls on crossbred and commercial cattle. In my mix of cattle, due to my climate, I have a lot of ear. Some of my cattle may be crossbred with one of the "minor" breds. Who knows. But its not a whole herd of "minor" breeds. Most are clearly hereford/angus/charolais/brahman/beefmaster type crosses. I prefer the mix.

 

[Mr. Greenjeans]

Informative posts have revealed some interesting facts in regard to birth size/growth ratios of Salers in addition to macroeconomic performance of Charolais crossed over British based breeds (2 cents a pound in added profitability).

It seems a bit premature to let blanket statements in regard to "minor" breeds preclude further discussion. It might prove simply anecdotal, but quite possibly the reason for limited exposure in the U.S. is due to unwarranted reasoning that precludes their widespread use. Timing of introduction, limited knowledge of the breed, pronunciation of the breeds name, and the industry's flat out recalcitrance could all be to blame. I once asked my grandfather why he raised Angus and Brangus -- he said his father told him to always raise black. He was right for this area and its corresponding demand, but for possibly the wrong reason. Sometimes being lucky is as good as being talented.

I belief Angus (and Brangus) along with Charolais, under any circumstance would always hold a predominant percentage of our regional beef industry.

Here are some considerations that keep my interest in the exotics and those breeds that were line bred.

Aubrac: grass fed performance
Irish Black: genetic/phenotype consistency (caveat: contractual restrictions)
Tarentaise: isolated gene pool for ultimate heterosis and they are just plain pretty females
Gelbvieh: maternal, fertility, milk, docile
Murray Grey: phenotype consistency in that I am impressed in every picture I see of them

I believe Limousin would be a dominant breed today if they weren't set back due to docility. Their phenotype just yells "I am limousin" with their classic long look. On a negative note we grew up pronouncing Chianina as "Kick-a-nee-nuh" after a couple of show calves. Their athletic appearance was striking however.

I'm rambling.

 

[Taurus]

I just don't think Gelbvieh is a minor breed JMO as there are good numbers of them. But like Lauraleesfarm said, there is a reason why the minor breeds got ignored by the feedlots and the commercial operators. For example...the Salers' disposition, Murray Grey's size and Aubrac's Jersey markings and that the Aubrac are a lean beef. British White and Pinzgauer cattle are so colorful that they will cheat on homo black bulls and got the rainbow crop of the crossbred calves that looks like a longhorn cross that no feedlots want. Also there's some minor breeds that was known for their large birthweights that might be undesirable to the commercial operators.

I would say that club calf breeders has ruined true Chianina, true Maine Anjou and Shorthorns.

 

[JWBrahman]

The problem with the "minor" breeds you listed is that.....they are minor....and for a reason. It is difficult for a minor breed to develop excellence in genetics due to low numbers being bred and utilized. With that, the gene pool is limited, and the quality that is widely available is not generally going to be that good. You may find one or two nice ones but not enough to really make a good herd.

This leads us to the question of.....why are they minor breeds? If they are such great animals, then why doesn't everyone have them? So there's your answer.

I have crossbred and commercial cattle and that is my preference. I have purebred registered bulls on crossbred and commercial cattle. In my mix of cattle, due to my climate, I have a lot of ear. Some of my cattle may be crossbred with one of the "minor" breds. Who knows. But its not a whole herd of "minor" breeds. Most are clearly hereford/angus/charolais/brahman/beefmaster type crosses. I prefer the mix.

I really like CMF1's Murray Greys but the phenotype is so similar to CharAngus that most of us would have a hard time making the arithmetic work for their higher purchase price. It kinda goes back to the saying used a lot on here, "Why reinvent the wheel when the round one works just fine."

Mr. Greenjeans I recommend something that will take only a little of your time and you will learn a lot. Go to the Texas page on cattlerange.com every morning. Watch the new listings to see what sells, for what price, and how quickly. You might just be surprised. I saw a Piedmontese bull sell the first day it was listed.

 

[thommoos]

The problem with the "minor" breeds you listed is that.....they are minor....and for a reason. It is difficult for a minor breed to develop excellence in genetics due to low numbers being bred and utilized. With that, the gene pool is limited, and the quality that is widely available is not generally going to be that good. You may find one or two nice ones but not enough to really make a good herd.

This leads us to the question of.....why are they minor breeds? If they are such great animals, then why doesn't everyone have them? So there's your answer.

I have crossbred and commercial cattle and that is my preference. I have purebred registered bulls on crossbred and commercial cattle. In my mix of cattle, due to my climate, I have a lot of ear. Some of my cattle may be crossbred with one of the "minor" breds. Who knows. But its not a whole herd of "minor" breeds. Most are clearly hereford/angus/charolais/brahman/beefmaster type crosses. I prefer the mix.

marketing has a huge factor in it. I wish my breed had the AAA marketing machine. as many have seen what everyone has a different opinion on there breed. Some of these breeders saw a opportunity and went with it, developed what they wanted. If we did a secret poll you would find many would change breed if all things were equal at the sale barn.

 

[Mr. Greenjeans]

So there we have it. In summary, the color of cattle fur of which none, hopefully, shows up on the plate is the predominant concern and guiding force in todays market. We are relegated to this mantra even on an imaginary media such as this board. My great-grandfather, in essence, guessed correctly with the knowledge he had at the time and left our family of raising quality black cattle simply because "black is best".

Just so you know, our extended family with their adjoining ranches raise purebred Angus, purebred Brangus, purebred Charolais, and I just recently entered the Gelbvieh arena. In order to begin a Gelbvieh operation, I had to drive 350 miles east to buy a bull and have heifers shipped from 370 miles north. To me they are a minor breed due to these availability obstacles -- limited in availability, but AI services can negate that concern quickly.

JWBrahman, I plan on further utilizing the cattlerange.com website as you suggested.
Taurus, I also understand that Aubrac are a lean beef but covering a herd of graze-efficient mommas with a genetically tested Angus with high marks for calpastatin and calpain can quickly give a result that is desired.

We have a Longhorn cow that is solid red, 800 lbs and sports a level of fecundity that all breeders could only hope for. In 9 years she as given birth to 10 calves that weaned a 65% of her weight and have all been solid black thanks to the Angus bulls used and her consistent coloring. Her calves consistently bring 95% of the price per pound of the "quality stock". Another longhorn consistently has line-back calves that are BETTER CALVES year in and year out but sell at 75% of the "quality stock". We just laugh at the "silly solid black thing" the market prefers. That better calf usually ends up on my plate since my wife prefers the lack of grease from the 1/2 Longhorn 1/2 Angus.

In conclusion, Angus is best (when covered by my Gelbvieh bulls), Charolais make great smokey calves when crossed with Angus, Murray Grey would be a simple alternative but it's not so simple, Shorthorns got screwed, Longhorns screw things up, Aubracs are too lean as are most commercial end products, Tarentaise are not to be mentioned, Irish Blacks are unmentionable, and Limousin and Salers are crazy unless they aren't.

Got it. :bang:

 

[Taurus]

If you are laughing at the black market then why you have black bulls running with the longhorns? And why are you eating half Angus steaks and not full blooded longhorn steaks? Perhaps there is a reason why the feedlots don't want a full blooded longhorn? It is what the market wants. Otherwise we would running our favorite breeds and I could just let a belted galloway bull loose and running with the cows or cut the wire and let the neighbor's Belgian Blue bull roaming with our cows.

 

[SSGenetics]

If you are laughing at the black market then why you have black bulls running with the longhorns? And why are you eating half Angus steaks and not full blooded longhorn steaks? Perhaps there is a reason why the feedlots don't want a full blooded longhorn? It is what the market wants. Otherwise we would running our favorite breeds and I could just let a belted galloway bull loose and running with the cows or cut the wire and let the neighbor's Belgian Blue bull roaming with our cows.

Ohh for Gods sake. Don't you ever just shut the heII up? :deadhorse:

 

[Mr. Greenjeans]

Taurus, I believe you skipped a few steps in your assumption and your corresponding digital finger pointing. I believe pugnacious is too strong of a word, but it would be the one immediately prior to that position as to where I will position your post. I will simply state that color means nothing to me in regard to what we raise and within that statement is the fact that since color is of no consequence, we might as well make $$$. Under current conditions, black yields more $$$ and in addition, ContinentalXBritish will yield the most. As soon as the market switches to feature and prefer other colors and patterns of color, you will witness those of us who are not recalcitrant, quickly make any switch to accommodate sound market demands. I believe the market will eventually discredit black since poor quality is creeping in under that black hide every year.

We raise black Angus, black Brangus, and black Gelbvieh. The red versions are just as qualified and if one is chasing genetic purity, there would be no better way than to use recessive coloring. It is a shame that when Mendel's law rears its statistical head with a recessive color, we immediately know less money is to be made off that offspring even thought the same genetic performance is under the hide.

We have 2 longhorns just for pasture art. The reference had less to do with longhorns than with overall market considerations. Why? you ask. I want to please my wallet so we raise black. I want to please my taste buds and olfactory senses so we eat 1/2 Longhorn and 1/2 Angus. The marketing of full blooded longhorn was never a consideration but congratulate yourself on an effort well made -- however obtuse. The breeds that I mentioned and their corresponding potential genetic contributions never approached those of a Belted Galloway or Belgian Blue. My business is pounds with minimal input. Belt's don't provide pounds, and while Blues might, I wouldn't want to speed dial the vet every time a cow goes into labor.

Regards :tiphat:

 

[3waycross]

Taurus, I believe you skipped a few steps in your assumption and your corresponding digital finger pointing. I believe pugnacious is too strong of a word, but it would be the one immediately prior to that position as to where I will position your post. I will simply state that color means nothing to me in regard to what we raise and within that statement is the fact that since color is of no consequence, we might as well make $$$. Under current conditions, black yields more $$$ and in addition, ContinentalXBritish will yield the most. As soon as the market switches to feature and prefer other colors and patterns of color, you will witness those of us who are not recalcitrant, quickly make any switch to accommodate sound market demands. I believe the market will eventually discredit black since poor quality is creeping in under that black hide every year.

We raise black Angus, black Brangus, and black Gelbvieh. The red versions are just as qualified and if one is chasing genetic purity, there would be no better way than to use recessive coloring. It is a shame that when Mendel's law rears its statistical head with a recessive color, we immediately know less money is to be made off that offspring even thought the same genetic performance is under the hide.

We have 2 longhorns just for pasture art. The reference had less to do with longhorns than with overall market considerations. Why? you ask. I want to please my wallet so we raise black. I want to please my taste buds and olfactory senses so we eat 1/2 Longhorn and 1/2 Angus. The marketing of full blooded longhorn was never a consideration but congratulate yourself on an effort well made -- however obtuse. The breeds that I mentioned and their corresponding potential genetic contributions never approached those of a Belted Galloway or Belgian Blue. My business is pounds with minimal input. Belt's don't provide pounds, and while Blues might, I wouldn't want to speed dial the vet every time a cow goes into labor.

Regards :tiphat:

Why if that ain't just the nicest I have ever heard anyone told to go pi$$ up a rope. :tiphat: Greenjeans. That was one darned fine scholarly dissertation!

 

[Taurus]

Taurus, I believe you skipped a few steps in your assumption and your corresponding digital finger pointing. I believe pugnacious is too strong of a word, but it would be the one immediately prior to that position as to where I will position your post. I will simply state that color means nothing to me in regard to what we raise and within that statement is the fact that since color is of no consequence, we might as well make $$$. Under current conditions, black yields more $$$ and in addition, ContinentalXBritish will yield the most. As soon as the market switches to feature and prefer other colors and patterns of color, you will witness those of us who are not recalcitrant, quickly make any switch to accommodate sound market demands. I believe the market will eventually discredit black since poor quality is creeping in under that black hide every year.

We raise black Angus, black Brangus, and black Gelbvieh. The red versions are just as qualified and if one is chasing genetic purity, there would be no better way than to use recessive coloring. It is a shame that when Mendel's law rears its statistical head with a recessive color, we immediately know less money is to be made off that offspring even thought the same genetic performance is under the hide.

We have 2 longhorns just for pasture art. The reference had less to do with longhorns than with overall market considerations. Why? you ask. I want to please my wallet so we raise black. I want to please my taste buds and olfactory senses so we eat 1/2 Longhorn and 1/2 Angus. The marketing of full blooded longhorn was never a consideration but congratulate yourself on an effort well made -- however obtuse. The breeds that I mentioned and their corresponding potential genetic contributions never approached those of a Belted Galloway or Belgian Blue. My business is pounds with minimal input. Belt's don't provide pounds, and while Blues might, I wouldn't want to speed dial the vet every time a cow goes into labor.

Regards :tiphat:

Yup blacks bring more money in your wallet but so are their red cousins. They won't dock you for have reds mixed with the blacks at the sale barn and not all blacks that will meet the requirements of the "CAB".

Purebred belted Galloway will never bring pounds....but so are Murray Greys and we're back to step one. American Belgian Blues' calving ease are no different than most continental breeds.

While I can see their benefits, there's always one thing that prevents us from using these breeds, whenever if its a trait or a contract or in limited numbers. :hat:

 

[double v]

please define most continental breeds??? if you mean gelbvieh please guess again....

 

[glacierridge]

For the record calving has greatly improved in the blues.
http://www.agcanada.com/canadiancattlemen/2011/12/12/belgian-blues-change-with-the-times/

And pounds they will put on.
We have had percentage BB yield 70% and some pb dress out at 80%
Our BB crosses hit the hook faster than our other crosses with big a$$ cuts.
Don't mind a big steak.

 

[skeeter swatter]

Somewhere with less bugs in summer and less winter in winter.
I've been checking out Irish Blacks, and I'm pretty impressed with what I've found. I haven't tried them yet because; 1 price 2. few/none in my area.
Also the Murray Greys that I've seen on here look good.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

One farmer from Denmark told about how BB breed has been improved in his country: "Can´t remember the year but it was start 1990th. There was a tv-dokumentary on danish tv. It showed a c-section on a blue cow, that had several c-sections done. The danish population was ready to slaughter all blue animals in Denamrk. The guverment had to react. So they told the blue society in Denmark to make a plan to reduse all theese c-sections(Ibelive more that 50% calfs were born by C-section at that time) The society had few weeks to make a plan. The plan was to reduse to about 25% during one geration and then stay under 10% the rest of the time. All breeders agreed to make no planed c-sections - only the ones that was nessesary. No blue heifer was allowed to be served/inseminated to a blue bull - the first calf has to be a crossbreed. The program is now being run by the danish goverment, and they are collecting calving data all the time. In Denmark if you take a cow to the slaughterhouse, there is allways a vet at the slaughterhouse -even the small ones. If he finds a cow with a c-section, that has not been reported, the breeder and his vet get a ticket up to £ 3.000,-. The same is, if you have a cow with a tit cut of. If it´s not reported by your vet, you get a ticket. In Denmark we are very much been looked after. If you go to Sweden, the breed is total forbidden. In my little herd of purebreed blue and purebreed piemontese, blue cows calves as easy as the piemontese. My best blue cow had a calf on 57 kg. natural born last year. We no longer call the breed Belgian Blue in Denmark but Danish Blue."

 

[WalnutCrest]

A little late to the chat, but I thought I'd post a couple of pictures of fullblood Aubracs for those who haven't seen them before.

Nolan -- 12yrs old at the time of this photo (now deceased) -- son of the famous French bull Hector AIA, who has Mignard as the maternal grandsire (Mignard was the 2x Paris All-Breed Champion) and was known for the quality of his daughters (I'll try to get a picture of Mignard up later on)


Upra -- 10yrs old in this photo -- a Nolan daughter and an Edgar grand daughter (out of another Mignard daughter)


Violet -- 8yrs old in this photo -- another Nolan daughter (also a grand daughter of another famous French bull, Invincible AIA, who was bred to yet another Mignard daughter)