Goodbye Gimli

[Nesikep]

It would be immoral if Gimli had an encounter with a bucket of black shoe polish to hide the white... As it stands, if the buyer likes him, ain't nothing wrong with that.

If we're going to talk about color patterns in Simmental... Perhaps we ought to see what they once were.. I think they looked just fine back then.. I think the modern Simms shouldn't have the same name.

 

[76 Bar]

I think the modern Simms shouldn't have the same name.

Great post Nesi. And I dare say...Applicable to many of the evolved modern breeds.

 

[Bright Raven]

I think the modern Simms shouldn't have the same name.

Great post Nesi. And I dare say...Applicable to many of the evolved modern breeds.

Does it matter what they are called? Let's say that the American Simmental Association changes the name of the breed to Neanderthals, naming them for the Neandertal Valley of Germany rather than the Simmi Valley of Switzerland. What changes? The animals in the registry just simply got a name change. The phenotype and genotype stayed the same.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I think the modern Simms shouldn't have the same name.

Great post Nesi. And I dare say...Applicable to many of the evolved modern breeds.

Does it matter what they are called? Let's say that the American Simmental Association changes the name of the breed to Neanderthals, naming them for the Neandertal Valley of Germany rather than the Simmi Valley of Switzerland. What changes? The animals in the registry just simply got a name change. The phenotype and genotype stayed the same.

You have got to be honest Rondo, the modern Simmi looks nothing like his ancestors.

Angus might be somewhat larger but are still black (except for the freak red ones) and marble better than any other breed.

 

[Nesikep]

I think the modern Simms shouldn't have the same name.

Great post Nesi. And I dare say...Applicable to many of the evolved modern breeds.

Does it matter what they are called? Let's say that the American Simmental Association changes the name of the breed to Neanderthals, naming them for the Neandertal Valley of Germany rather than the Simmi Valley of Switzerland. What changes? The animals in the registry just simply got a name change. The phenotype and genotype stayed the same.

My point is neither the genotype nor the phenotype has stayed the same by a LONG SHOT

 

[Bright Raven]

Great post Nesi. And I dare say...Applicable to many of the evolved modern breeds.

Does it matter what they are called? Let's say that the American Simmental Association changes the name of the breed to Neanderthals, naming them for the Neandertal Valley of Germany rather than the Simmi Valley of Switzerland. What changes? The animals in the registry just simply got a name change. The phenotype and genotype stayed the same.

You have got to be honest Rondo, the modern Simmi looks nothing like his ancestors.

Angus might be somewhat larger but are still black (except for the freak red ones) and marble better than any other breed.

They have changed but I don't see what benefit changing the name accomplishes.

 

[Bright Raven]

Great post Nesi. And I dare say...Applicable to many of the evolved modern breeds.

Does it matter what they are called? Let's say that the American Simmental Association changes the name of the breed to Neanderthals, naming them for the Neandertal Valley of Germany rather than the Simmi Valley of Switzerland. What changes? The animals in the registry just simply got a name change. The phenotype and genotype stayed the same.

My point is neither the genotype nor the phenotype has stayed the same by a LONG SHOT

Efrem, that change in phenotype and genotype was a positive change. The name of the breed does not need to be changed to commemorate that improvement.

 

[elkwc]

Does it matter what they are called? Let's say that the American Simmental Association changes the name of the breed to Neanderthals, naming them for the Neandertal Valley of Germany rather than the Simmi Valley of Switzerland. What changes? The animals in the registry just simply got a name change. The phenotype and genotype stayed the same.

My point is neither the genotype nor the phenotype has stayed the same by a LONG SHOT

Efrem, that change in phenotype and genotype was a positive change. The name of the breed does not need to be changed to commemorate that improvement.

BR again that is a personal opinion. IMO the Simmi and Chars have lost some of the qualities that made them attractive to a commercial breeder. I've talked to other commercial breeders who feel the same. The phenotype now is more closely aligned with that of a good Angus or Hereford. Frame, muslcing and growth have been moderated enough where those qualities aren't the drawing attraction they used to be. I like many of the Black Simmi's I see on here. But still debating that they offer me something that I can't get within the Angus and Hereford breeds. You have to be selective when using either breed. The Angus in many cases have lost their marbling advantage and the Herefords have lost many qualities with the impurities that have been introduced. But there are still lines in both breeds that offer the commercial cowman what he needs. I have a 2 y/o bull that has as much natural growth as any bull I've looked at in 5 years. The Simmi's and Chars don't offer the increased weaning weight advantage they once did. Again these are my opinions. I respect others but I say they aren't the same as the original Simmi by any means and don't bring the same qualities to the table.

 

[Bright Raven]

My point is neither the genotype nor the phenotype has stayed the same by a LONG SHOT

Efrem, that change in phenotype and genotype was a positive change. The name of the breed does not need to be changed to commemorate that improvement.

BR again that is a personal opinion. IMO the Simmi and Chars have lost some of the qualities that made them attractive to a commercial breeder. I've talked to other commercial breeders who feel the same. The phenotype now is more closely aligned with that of a good Angus or Hereford. Frame, muslcing and growth have been moderated enough where those qualities aren't the drawing attraction they used to be. I like many of the Black Simmi's I see on here. But still debating that they offer me something that I can't get within the Angus and Hereford breeds. You have to be selective when using either breed. The Angus in many cases have lost their marbling advantage and the Herefords have lost many qualities with the impurities that have been introduced. But there are still lines in both breeds that offer the commercial cowman what he needs. I have a 2 y/o bull that has as much natural growth as any bull I've looked at in 5 years. The Simmi's and Chars don't offer the increased weaning weight advantage they once did. Again these are my opinions. I respect others but I say they aren't the same as the original Simmi by any means and don't bring the same qualities to the table.

I appreciate observations like that.

I will have to say that is not what I see in Kentucky. The Simmental cattle here have bone and muscle.. My first experience with Simmental cattle was through Rocking P Cattle company. Jeanne can provide testimony on their position in the Simmental Breed. Chan Phillips has been rated as one of the nation's top cattle judges. Doing the National Stock Show in Denver many times. His father Larry who is extremely ill, bred Angus cattle for 60 years. He resisted going to Simmental. Chan and Keith pushed. Now Larry is a firm Simmental convert. The Simmentals perform better on our pastures. Produce more pounds and according to them do it with more calving ease. Their Simmentals have about the same or maybe a slightly smaller frame than the Angus here in my region. I think the Simmental put on more muscle, grow out faster, and are good performers on our pastures. Granted, Kentucky has a great climate for cattle and is vastly different that Kansas and Oklahoma, even Missouri.

Edited to add: I don't think our views are far apart. The qualities of Angus and Simmental are similar and frankly, I could be happy growing Angus. I like some of the Angus I see at Boyd cattle company.

 

[Muddy]

Black & Red Simmentals are good cattle but they should not be called Simmentals. Same for the blackized breeds.

 

[Bright Raven]

Black & Red Simmentals are good cattle but they should not be called Simmentals. Same for the blackized breeds.

Muddy, I would not have a moment's concern if they changed their name. I just don't see what it would accomplish.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Maybe the Simmental breed is just making a full circle. In 20 - 30 years they may look like they did 20 - 30 years ago.

 

[Nesikep]

The breed wasn't "improved", it was absolutely changed to be unrecognizable in form and function... Perhaps it got to be a bit a better beef breed, but it lost its other two purposes
This one has a lifetime production of 210,000 lbs of milk at 4% fat (13 years)

And at this elevation, it doesn't look like they're terribly spoiled with lush grass.. they certainly didn't spend their day at a grain bin either.. grain was expensive.. they probably got a bit as a treat.

Bull on the left seems to have lots of meat to him

 

[Nesikep]

Black & Red Simmentals are good cattle but they should not be called Simmentals. Same for the blackized breeds.

I bet even experienced cattlemen would have a hard time picking the breeds if you had a black limo, black angus, black Simm, and black Gelbvieh all side by side

 

[Bright Raven]

Black & Red Simmentals are good cattle but they should not be called Simmentals. Same for the blackized breeds.

I bet even experienced cattlemen would have a hard time picking the breeds if you had a black limo, black angus, black Simm, and black Gelbvieh all side by side

Efrem. There is substance in what you say. Furthermore, it should not surprise anyone that beef breeds are becoming more alike. Think of the four breeds you mentioned, breeders of each of those breeds are breeding to meet (or could I say meat) current market demands.

Just as a sidenote: You might be surprised how some folks can still tell those breeds apart. Fire Sweep can. I have seen her do it several times. I bet there are guys like Alacowman who can too. I have seen him do it from only pictures posted on this forum.

 

[elkwc]

Efrem, that change in phenotype and genotype was a positive change. The name of the breed does not need to be changed to commemorate that improvement.

BR again that is a personal opinion. IMO the Simmi and Chars have lost some of the qualities that made them attractive to a commercial breeder. I've talked to other commercial breeders who feel the same. The phenotype now is more closely aligned with that of a good Angus or Hereford. Frame, muslcing and growth have been moderated enough where those qualities aren't the drawing attraction they used to be. I like many of the Black Simmi's I see on here. But still debating that they offer me something that I can't get within the Angus and Hereford breeds. You have to be selective when using either breed. The Angus in many cases have lost their marbling advantage and the Herefords have lost many qualities with the impurities that have been introduced. But there are still lines in both breeds that offer the commercial cowman what he needs. I have a 2 y/o bull that has as much natural growth as any bull I've looked at in 5 years. The Simmi's and Chars don't offer the increased weaning weight advantage they once did. Again these are my opinions. I respect others but I say they aren't the same as the original Simmi by any means and don't bring the same qualities to the table.

I appreciate observations like that.

I will have to say that is not what I see in Kentucky. The Simmental cattle here have bone and muscle.. My first experience with Simmental cattle was through Rocking P Cattle company. Jeanne can provide testimony on their position in the Simmental Breed. Chan Phillips has been rated as one of the nation's top cattle judges. Doing the National Stock Show in Denver many times. His father Larry who is extremely ill, bred Angus cattle for 60 years. He resisted going to Simmental. Chan and Keith pushed. Now Larry is a firm Simmental convert. The Simmentals perform better on our pastures. Produce more pounds and according to them do it with more calving ease. Their Simmentals have about the same or maybe a slightly smaller frame than the Angus here in my region. I think the Simmental put on more muscle, grow out faster, and are good performers on our pastures. Granted, Kentucky has a great climate for cattle and is vastly different that Kansas and Oklahoma, even Missouri.

Edited to add: I don't think our views are far apart. The qualities of Angus and Simmental are similar and frankly, I could be happy growing Angus. I like some of the Angus I see at Boyd cattle company.

BR I agree that the Simmi's have bone and muscle.Although the blacks I see are muscled different than the Simmi's of 40 years ago. And are very good cattle. What I was trying to convery about them and Chars is a commercial breeder used to use both breeds to add frame and muscling. They offered qualities that you didn't find elsewhere. Now it seems every breed is trying to have the same phenotype and genotype. So although good cattle they don't offer a different option for the commercial breeder. Now that many Angus and Hereford breeders have bred the frame off and in the case of Angus many have lost their muscling a commercial breeder is having more trouble finding a bull to add both. And when he does there are a dozen more breeders there looking for him. The Simmi's our neighbor has from the road look to be mostly frame 5.0-6.0 cattle. I've been looking for a frame 6.0-7.0 bull. That is hard to find here. Especially if you want muscling with it. The 2 y/o Angus I have has the frame and growth I desire. He has enough muscling although I would like to see a little more. Again you have very nice cattle. And if I find one with the frame and growth I desire I will likely consider one. I agree our views are similar and I propably did a bad job of conveying my views.

 

[Bright Raven]

BR again that is a personal opinion. IMO the Simmi and Chars have lost some of the qualities that made them attractive to a commercial breeder. I've talked to other commercial breeders who feel the same. The phenotype now is more closely aligned with that of a good Angus or Hereford. Frame, muslcing and growth have been moderated enough where those qualities aren't the drawing attraction they used to be. I like many of the Black Simmi's I see on here. But still debating that they offer me something that I can't get within the Angus and Hereford breeds. You have to be selective when using either breed. The Angus in many cases have lost their marbling advantage and the Herefords have lost many qualities with the impurities that have been introduced. But there are still lines in both breeds that offer the commercial cowman what he needs. I have a 2 y/o bull that has as much natural growth as any bull I've looked at in 5 years. The Simmi's and Chars don't offer the increased weaning weight advantage they once did. Again these are my opinions. I respect others but I say they aren't the same as the original Simmi by any means and don't bring the same qualities to the table.

I appreciate observations like that.

I will have to say that is not what I see in Kentucky. The Simmental cattle here have bone and muscle.. My first experience with Simmental cattle was through Rocking P Cattle company. Jeanne can provide testimony on their position in the Simmental Breed. Chan Phillips has been rated as one of the nation's top cattle judges. Doing the National Stock Show in Denver many times. His father Larry who is extremely ill, bred Angus cattle for 60 years. He resisted going to Simmental. Chan and Keith pushed. Now Larry is a firm Simmental convert. The Simmentals perform better on our pastures. Produce more pounds and according to them do it with more calving ease. Their Simmentals have about the same or maybe a slightly smaller frame than the Angus here in my region. I think the Simmental put on more muscle, grow out faster, and are good performers on our pastures. Granted, Kentucky has a great climate for cattle and is vastly different that Kansas and Oklahoma, even Missouri.

Edited to add: I don't think our views are far apart. The qualities of Angus and Simmental are similar and frankly, I could be happy growing Angus. I like some of the Angus I see at Boyd cattle company.

BR I agree that the Simmi's have bone and muscle.Although the blacks I see are muscled different than the Simmi's of 40 years ago. And are very good cattle. What I was trying to convery about them and Chars is a commercial breeder used to use both breeds to add frame and muscling. They offered qualities that you didn't find elsewhere. Now it seems every breed is trying to have the same phenotype and genotype. So although good cattle they don't offer a different option for the commercial breeder. Now that many Angus and Hereford breeders have bred the frame off and in the case of Angus many have lost their muscling a commercial breeder is having more trouble finding a bull to add both. And when he does there are a dozen more breeders there looking for him. The Simmi's our neighbor has from the road look to be mostly frame 5.0-6.0 cattle. I've been looking for a frame 6.0-7.0 bull. That is hard to find here. Especially if you want muscling with it. The 2 y/o Angus I have has the frame and growth I desire. He has enough muscling although I would like to see a little more. Again you have very nice cattle. And if I find one with the frame and growth I desire I will likely consider one. I agree our views are similar and I propably did a bad job of conveying my views.

Thank you. I have some that have a lot of frame. I bet I could produce some that would meet your frame requirements. In fact, the bull I took out to Missouri has what some might consider too much frame. He is a percentage bull Sired by Ironhide. He is at Fire Sweep's ranch near Springfield. He will be displayed at farm fest if he does not sell sooner. Fire Sweep can tell you what she thinks his frame size is.

Again, you and I are on the same page of music.

 

[Muddy]

Anyone wanna make a bet that Elkc, Fire Sweep and Alacowman can tell a Black Angus from the rest of black breeds? By the black breeds, I meant ALL of them.

 

[jehosofat]

This is AWESOME :lol:

 

[Bright Raven]

Anyone wanna make a bet that Elkc, Fire Sweep and Alacowman can tell a Black Angus from the rest of black breeds? By the black breeds, I meant ALL of them.

First time Fire Sweep walked through my herd, she knew every half blood (simmental 50/angus 50) from every Purebred Simmental. Granted that was only involving Angus and Simmental. I have seen her run about 80 percentile at fairs doing the same thing.