Give Me A Reason

[Chuckie]

After Jake posted his likes and dislikes thread, I would like to know why some people don't like certain breeds. I have not dealt with any I listed other than the Charolais. We used Charolais cows with Angus bulls and had one to prolapse. But other than that, they have been OK. From what I read, the cattle that I list seem to be good cattle. But of course they don't like to write about the drawbacks of the breed, and I want to know what they are before adding one to the herd. If you have had really bad experiences with a breed I didn't list, add it.
Why would you not cross the following breeds with Angus?
Simmental
Gelbvieh
Limousin
Charolais

 

[bigbull338]

you havent listed a breed there that i dont like.but all those breedswill work with angus.i know charlois an angus will work.i see alot of that crossbreed sale.but i really dont like angus.but thats me.dont like simmbra either.to dang highstrung.scott

 

[Angus Guy]

Chuckie
Those breeds will always work with angus. Three of them have already turned their breeds predominantly black and the fourth is just a darn cross for angus.

 

[Jake]

gelbvieh crossed with angus makes a great calf along with the simmi angus cross.

But them nutty, sickly looking limis that most people breed to their angus is the worst cross we've had come through the lot and be on this farm.

 

[rwtherefords]

All the breeds you listed will work fine if all your wanting to do is successfully produce a calf. You didn't state your breeding objectives so I've assumed that your seeking a terminal cross. I think the key is in the "WHY" people like or don't like the breeds they listed.

For me, I'm a small beef cow/calf operation. I'm also retaining or selling replacement heifers, so I'm not just a terminal cross operation. Not having to deal with tempermental, jumpy, animals in close quarters is my idea of something to avoid if at all possible. And, animals with horns the size of Texas are just plain ridiculous to me, except as a novelty.

I think it was Txag that stated in a response to me, some time ago when we were discussing weighing calves, that they had better things to do than fight off angry cows. I can't blame them if that's how people's cows act. My Polled Hereford, Black Angus, and Charolais cows are all bred to either my Black Angus or Polled Hereford bulls, and I can walk up to any of them and pick up their calf to weigh it without fear of being attacked. That type of temperment also makes them very easy to safety work through the chutes for worming, vaccinations, etc. Since I'm a small operation, good performance records are essential to identify any poorer performing cows because each individual is a much higher percentage of my total herd than they would be in a large operation.

Since those 3 breeds (Hereford, Angus, Charolais) produce excellent beef, which bring an excellent price at the sale barn, I prefer them. Note that my Charolais are only used for crossing, either with Angus or Herefords.

Now you know the "why" behind my likes and dislikes.

 

[Wewild]

Why would you not cross the following breeds with Angus?
Simmental
Gelbvieh
Limousin
Charolais

Because they won't make yellow calves.

 

[Wewild]

But them nutty, sickly looking limis that most people breed to their angus is the worst cross we've had come through the lot and be on this farm.

And what was your sample size on this analyses? Last time we talked they weren't crosses.

 

[LegacyBreeder]

We've ran all sorts of the big continentals in the past and had to pay for our curiosity. Simmentals in particular back in the early 80s. We lost 60% of our calf crop the first year due to those damnably big calves (the bull wasn't a big animal, and no one here had ever heard of an EPD or the like), not to mention a few of our girls who busted themselves up calving (our herd at the time consisted of regular old horned herefords). As such I don't have a lot of love for the breed. If you can make them work for you, go right ahead. If I were to dabble in the Fleckviehs again it would be with a couple of purebred heifers. Even at that, its a stretch of the imagination.

As for Maines, they're just so damn big that I can't imagine trying to use them on my girls.

 

[Chuckie]

Last night on my trip to Nashville, I realized that when I ask a question, I think everyone can read my mind here.
On the big breeds, I would only consider using the cows, no big bulls on Angus cows. I would breed an Angus bull to these monsters. Of course, I am going for a terminal cross, needing to up the weight on the commercial cattle with a cross. I have been reading the articles that everyone has posted about how crossing the breeds, can up the weight of the calf as much as 20%. I would consider keeping some of the heifers to breed to another bull with low BW such as Angus.
My partner refuses to have Herefords on the place. He doesn't like the pink skin on the face, and he talks about how they look weak through the eyes. Maybe I can run across a black baldie heifer along the way and slip her in.
He seems pretty set on the Angus, but after I add another breed or two and show him how the weight increases, which in turn will increases the thickness of his billfold, he'll change his mind.
Of course he has been in cattle longer than myself. He has had the Brahmer's several years ago when they were big around here. Then he had the Charolais, and still some are in our herd. He also had Piedmontese and Belgin Blues. Both of these cattle had full muscling, and were nice looking animals. He had some Belgin Blue cows that were crossed with another breed, and they were nice thick cows. The Piedmontese were short in height, but really filled out. We still have Piedmontese in the freezer and I guess it is some of the better beef that I have tried. It seems to have a rich flavor and very little fat.
I'll just have to look around.

 

[certherfbeef]

As for Maines, they're just so damn big that I can't imagine trying to use them on my girls.

I have no problems with the maine on the hereford cows. But then again, I like my cows to be able to have a 90+ calf unassisted.

I think you may be stuck in the 80's with your opinions on the simmy and maine breeds. Of course you are entitled, but those cattle arn't near the cow killers they used to be. I routienly use maine and simmy AI bulls on commercial heifers. Calves come just slightly higger than the herf clean-up's but not over 90lbs.

 

[Jake]

But them nutty, sickly looking limis that most people breed to their angus is the worst cross we've had come through the lot and be on this farm.

And what was your sample size on this analyses? Last time we talked they weren't crosses.

last time they weren't, this last lot they were. At least they were black limis. If prices wouldn't have been where they were I'd have wanted to shoot some of them.

 

[LegacyBreeder]

As for Maines, they're just so damn big that I can't imagine trying to use them on my girls.

I have no problems with the maine on the hereford cows. But then again, I like my cows to be able to have a 90+ calf unassisted.

I think you may be stuck in the 80's with your opinions on the simmy and maine breeds. Of course you are entitled, but those cattle arn't near the cow killers they used to be. I routienly use maine and simmy AI bulls on commercial heifers. Calves come just slightly higger than the herf clean-up's but not over 90lbs.

Maybe so, but our herd consists of smaller framed polled hereford crosses and red angus. We try and keep our birth weights in the low to mid seventies when at all possible. I realize that there has been a lot of improvement in the genetics, but I like the old saying "Once bitten, twice shy" in this regard. But hey, that's not to say I think that they're bad breeds, they just aren't anything I would need (or use) on my herd.

 

[bullman]

I have crossed Charolais with Angus and gotten those smoky calves but they had rat tails and didn't bring a good price at the sale. They dock you for them in this part of the country. Has anyone else had that trouble with rat tail calves?

 

[MikeC]

I have crossed Charolais with Angus and gotten those smoky calves but they had rat tails and didn't bring a good price at the sale. They dock you for them in this part of the country. Has anyone else had that trouble with rat tail calves?

Rattails usually happen to a low percentage of calves. Use the Red Angus and you won't have rattails. It comes from the "Black" gene.

 

[Chuckie]

Describe a rattail. A picture would even be better. Is it a tail with no hair tassel on the end? I have never seen a rattail before.

 

[Wewild]

But them nutty, sickly looking limis that most people breed to their angus is the worst cross we've had come through the lot and be on this farm.

And what was your sample size on this analyses? Last time we talked they weren't crosses.

last time they weren't, this last lot they were. At least they were black limis. If prices wouldn't have been where they were I'd have wanted to shoot some of them.

How many in a lot this time. It amazes me that with a breed this big in the US that you always get culls. Who's doing the buying. I know ya'll don't raise them.

 

[bullman]

Yeah Chuckie there is no tassel as you call it on the end of the tail. There are some variations, some has a little tassel and some has none at all. Not sure why they dock you for them. I just know that the ones I had didn't bring as much as my other calves. Don't have any now, so i can't make a pic, maybe somebody else has some.

 

[Jake]

But them nutty, sickly looking limis that most people breed to their angus is the worst cross we've had come through the lot and be on this farm.

And what was your sample size on this analyses? Last time we talked they weren't crosses.

last time they weren't, this last lot they were. At least they were black limis. If prices wouldn't have been where they were I'd have wanted to shoot some of them.

How many in a lot this time. It amazes me that with a breed this big in the US that you always get culls. Who's doing the buying. I know ya'll don't raise them.

This time we had about 20 from Western KS. They looked great when they arrived again but as they grew up they got to looking ratty and didn't develop flesh or muscle just frame. They pounded out about 50-70 pounds lighter than their English counterparts. But this is just our experience with them. From the pictures I've seen of your animals I know they aren't all that way! We just have bad luck with them.

 

[mgman]

Calving difficulties is the main reason why I wouldn't use those breeds. I'm not convinced that those breeds have dealt with calving problems to the extent they'd like us to believe. I am basing my comments on my experience...as well as what I see from my neighbors who run Simmies, charolais and some of the continental breeds. They consistently lose calves every year...and more often than not cows too!
As someone who works full time away from the farm I need my cows to calve unassisted. 90+ lb calves are not acceptable in my operation.. 70-80 lbs is as large as I want my calves to be. I may not wean 700 lb calves, but I also haven't lost a single calf in the past 5 years-for a small operation (running around 20 cows) losing a single calf takes a big bite out of your income for the year.
When you add in the savings in feed cost for feeding a 1100-1200 lb cow versus a 1500-1600 lb continental cow it's an easy decision for me.

 

[farmerD44]

well i just have to say in defense of the simmentals that they are definetly alot better than they used to be. We have an awsome black simmental bull here now that we have used for 3 years. it pretty much sizes the calf to the cow- big cows have big calves and heifers have small calves. we had to pull a few- but we had to pull a few purebred angus as well.....

And the simmentals are way bigger all throughout life. the simm-angus cross and simm-angus-herford crosses are doing the best for us on the feedlot. I would post pics but dont have the time to go through the hoops to get any on here.

Dan.