Dirt eaters for Branded

[haase]

Falling apart has nothing to do with what was mentioned above, and is not rhetoric, not any different than what I mentioned on calves that are stuffed full of creep, or calves that do it the natural way, does not help epds for actual weaning weights. :deadhorse:

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

Vince, would you be willing to explain "falling apart" versus "melting". I hear these terms and interpret them to mean that the bulls "lose weight". Is that correct? Or do you mean their feet break down? Or do they suffer injuries because they are carrying too much weight.

Most every bull is going to melt, I expect that. But some will fall apart and it'll be 2+ years before they get acclimated and start putting cover back on. We haven't had any breeding or foot issues yet, but I change bulls every couple of years.

Losing weight is nothing but a yawn. Who cares? Right. But if they are falling apart (I assume you mean structurally - penis, legs, back, hip, feet, etc), that seems to be more of a genetic problem than conditioning. If a bull is over conditioned, he can get in shape by putting him in an environment that is in balance. But if you are seeing structural failures, most of that is going to be the result of genetics or perhaps abuse. Is that correct? I ask because this rhetoric is often repeated on CT with not explanation.

No. Loosing weight is not loosing nothing...its loosing money. There is no excuse for a properly managed and otherwise healthy bull to loose weight during a breeding season. If he looses too much weight during season 1. you are out those $/pounds if you have to ship him, and 2. especially in older bulls, it gets very hard to put condition back on them so that they don't freeze or starve to death during our winters (up here anyway!).

Structural issues are exacerbated by obesity. Its the same strife humans face. No animal has perfect structure, but carrying an extra couple hundred pounds around every day will not make the issue better, I can assure you! My Titan is old. He has arthritis in his joints and gets sore feet. I have his sons, daughters, grand daughters, and siblings in production. His issues are NOT genetic. He was fed hard and hauled over 10,000 miles by the time he was 4 years old...you would feel like c**p too. His issues are 100% a management problem (mine!, so not pointing fingers here!).

The fact of the matter is, there is a skill to feeding to maximize genetic potential, without thus obliterating it! I feed grain to my stock as needed to maintain optimal WORKING CONDITION. I work to balance all facets of their rations so they are economical and the very best fuel to make me money! I have bought bulls of various breeds and ages from well-known programs and lesser known ones. I have bred many of my bulls. I can tell you of a bull I know is sitting a stud right now, that is on a diet because he is too fat to produce usable semen. I can also tell you of one in my own pasture who somehow got so fat with no grain that he is now dry lotted (I mean grass shorter than my fresh cut lawn!) until he can slim down to a working weight...In the meantime, neither of those bulls is making any money!

 

[Bright Raven]

Falling apart has nothing to do with what was mentioned above, and is not rhetoric, not any different than what I mentioned on calves that are stuffed full of creep, or calves that do it the natural way, does not help epds for actual weaning weights. :deadhorse:

Haase. Define "falling apart". I am sincere. What are the characteristics you guys mean when you say that a bull developed on feed, quote "falls apart"? Thanks.

 

[Bright Raven]

Most every bull is going to melt, I expect that. But some will fall apart and it'll be 2+ years before they get acclimated and start putting cover back on. We haven't had any breeding or foot issues yet, but I change bulls every couple of years.

Losing weight is nothing but a yawn. Who cares? Right. But if they are falling apart (I assume you mean structurally - penis, legs, back, hip, feet, etc), that seems to be more of a genetic problem than conditioning. If a bull is over conditioned, he can get in shape by putting him in an environment that is in balance. But if you are seeing structural failures, most of that is going to be the result of genetics or perhaps abuse. Is that correct? I ask because this rhetoric is often repeated on CT with not explanation.

No. Loosing weight is not loosing nothing...its loosing money. There is no excuse for a properly managed and otherwise healthy bull to loose weight during a breeding season. If he looses too much weight during season 1. you are out those $/pounds if you have to ship him, and 2. especially in older bulls, it gets very hard to put condition back on them so that they don't freeze or starve to death during our winters (up here anyway!).

Structural issues are exacerbated by obesity. Its the same strife humans face. No animal has perfect structure, but carrying an extra couple hundred pounds around every day will not make the issue better, I can assure you! My Titan is old. He has arthritis in his joints and gets sore feet. I have his sons, daughters, grand daughters, and siblings in production. His issues are NOT genetic. He was fed hard and hauled over 10,000 miles by the time he was 4 years old...you would feel like c**p too. His issues are 100% a management problem (mine!, so not pointing fingers here!).

The fact of the matter is, there is a skill to feeding to maximize genetic potential, without thus obliterating it! I feed grain to my stock as needed to maintain optimal WORKING CONDITION. I work to balance all facets of their rations so they are economical and the very best fuel to make me money! I have bought bulls of various breeds and ages from well-known programs and lesser known ones. I have bred many of my bulls. I can tell you of a bull I know is sitting a stud right now, that is on a diet because he is too fat to produce usable semen. I can also tell you of one in my own pasture who somehow got so fat with no grain that he is now dry lotted (I mean grass shorter than my fresh cut lawn!) until he can slim down to a working weight...In the meantime, neither of those bulls is making any money!

That is the response I was looking for. Much appreciated.

I feed my weaned bulls less than 4 pounds of 12 % protein feed per day. Mainly to get them to come up every day. But my pastures are very rich. I may need to put them on reduced pasture. Thanks.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Falling apart during breeding season, usually applies to losing so much condition that they can no longer service cows, are fatigued, and even lose fertility. When a over fat bull loses condition down to what would be considered optimal condition, he will experience such a drain on his system from the loss of so much mass, it will drag him even lower than what a optimal conditioned bull would experience.
Any over conditioned bull I buy I have to take about 2 months to get in optimal condition. First burn the fat off, then put the muscle back on. But in the end the bulls that were feed properly in the first place, end up having a better life span.

 

[haase]

BR, my meaning on bulls falling apart on feed, has to do with how they are raised, a yearling bull coming off of heavy feed and confinement in the winter and are released in the summer have a tough time maintaining weight and conditioning, traveling more ground, not saying that's always the case, but does happen, probably more often than a bull that was raised on winter hay and grazing spring pastures.

 

[Bright Raven]

BR, my meaning on bulls falling apart on feed, has to do with how they are raised, a yearling bull coming off of heavy feed and confinement in the winter and are released in the summer have a tough time maintaining weight and conditioning, traveling more ground, not saying that's always the case, but does happen, probably more often than a bull that was raised on winter hay and grazing spring pastures.

Thanks. That is helpful, you guys are great. Boot Jack and Sim really helped.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

BR, I feed grain as needed too. I have hay my 18 month old bulls on a couple of pounds per head per day of cracked corn and soybeans since the forage ran out last fall. Our hay up here was absolute shyt, so they needed something more to grow. If they hay had been stellar, they would have only gotten a scattering of grain when they are worked. As it is, I need my investment in them to be fullfilled, so they get some grain. I also have my daughter's herd on grain right now. One cow is 14 and nursing twins, and the other is a first calf heifer. Neither are on good pasture and calves don't have a creep yet. When that changes, the cows will not get grain. I'm not against grain feeding at all. I just believe it needs to be done judiciously and with an eye on the prize.

With respect to your young bulls, I'm sure you will manage their development very well. Keep them growing, but don't get them to the point where you can no longer see the muscle definition on the hind quarter or forearm. If they get wrinkles behind their shoulders or pone fat, you have gone too far!!!

 

[Bright Raven]

BR, I feed grain as needed too. I have hay my 18 month old bulls on a couple of pounds per head per day of cracked corn and soybeans since the forage ran out last fall. Our hay up here was absolute shyt, so they needed something more to grow. If they hay had been stellar, they would have only gotten a scattering of grain when they are worked. As it is, I need my investment in them to be fullfilled, so they get some grain. I also have my daughter's herd on grain right now. One cow is 14 and nursing twins, and the other is a first calf heifer. Neither are on good pasture and calves don't have a creep yet. When that changes, the cows will not get grain. I'm not against grain feeding at all. I just believe it needs to be done judiciously and with an eye on the prize.

That makes good logic. In my case down here, I have pasture that is amazing right now. My bulls are getting fat. There are seven 8 month old bulls on 25 acres of pasture that they cannot begin to keep up with. I feed about 4 pounds per day per head of a standard mixed feed that is of generic quality to keep them coming up each morning. I would like to be judicious also. I very much appreciate your help.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

Both of these are pictured in what I consider optimal working condition.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Falling apart during breeding season, usually applies to losing so much condition that they can no longer service cows, are fatigued, and even lose fertility. When a over fat bull loses condition down to what would be considered optimal condition, he will experience such a drain on his system from the loss of so much mass, it will drag him even lower than what a optimal conditioned bull would experience.
Any over conditioned bull I buy I have to take about 2 months to get in optimal condition. First burn the fat off, then put the muscle back on. But in the end the bulls that were feed properly in the first place, end up having a better life span.

I can't confirm this, but I have a strong suspicion that "fat bulls" are akin to fat humans, too many carbs, little exercise, and what doesn't get used turns to fat. Feed with more protein tends to cost more, hence the reason for feeding cheaper substitutes that are high carb. I think some people develop bulls by putting a lot of fat on them versus muscle. Keep bulls confined in a small space and with little exercise, throw the corn at them, and it's not a surprise that they get fat. Give them lots of room, keep the water and food at different places in order to make them walk a lot, funny thing, they don't get fat.

People may disagree with what I've said, but I've not had anyone complain to me that bulls they have purchased from our operation fall apart or need to be pre-conditioned. Our bulls are turn key ready for service, they don't need a boot camp to get them ready. If I had to "fix" a bull before turnout, I would expect a steep discount from the seller.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Both of these are pictured in what I consider optimal working condition.

I would have more confidence in the first bull and it has nothing to do with color.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

Both of these are pictured in what I consider optimal working condition.

I would have more confidence in the first bull and it has nothing to do with color.

Why so? The black bull is pictured at 7 years old, the red at 18 months...

 

[True Grit Farms]

A 4 or 5 year old bull doesn't loose much condition during breeding season. My cows are eating leaves and all the new growth in the woods we burned this winter. Most young bulls don't know how to scrounge the woods for a belly full. To me our cattle are looking really good this year.

 

[Muddy]

Branded, just how many bulls in breeding age you sold?

 

[CattleMan1920]

Losing weight is nothing but a yawn. Who cares? Right. But if they are falling apart (I assume you mean structurally - penis, legs, back, hip, feet, etc), that seems to be more of a genetic problem than conditioning. If a bull is over conditioned, he can get in shape by putting him in an environment that is in balance. But if you are seeing structural failures, most of that is going to be the result of genetics or perhaps abuse. Is that correct? I ask because this rhetoric is often repeated on CT with not explanation.

No. Loosing weight is not loosing nothing...its loosing money. There is no excuse for a properly managed and otherwise healthy bull to loose weight during a breeding season. If he looses too much weight during season 1. you are out those $/pounds if you have to ship him, and 2. especially in older bulls, it gets very hard to put condition back on them so that they don't freeze or starve to death during our winters (up here anyway!).

Structural issues are exacerbated by obesity. Its the same strife humans face. No animal has perfect structure, but carrying an extra couple hundred pounds around every day will not make the issue better, I can assure you! My Titan is old. He has arthritis in his joints and gets sore feet. I have his sons, daughters, grand daughters, and siblings in production. His issues are NOT genetic. He was fed hard and hauled over 10,000 miles by the time he was 4 years old...you would feel like c**p too. His issues are 100% a management problem (mine!, so not pointing fingers here!).

The fact of the matter is, there is a skill to feeding to maximize genetic potential, without thus obliterating it! I feed grain to my stock as needed to maintain optimal WORKING CONDITION. I work to balance all facets of their rations so they are economical and the very best fuel to make me money! I have bought bulls of various breeds and ages from well-known programs and lesser known ones. I have bred many of my bulls. I can tell you of a bull I know is sitting a stud right now, that is on a diet because he is too fat to produce usable semen. I can also tell you of one in my own pasture who somehow got so fat with no grain that he is now dry lotted (I mean grass shorter than my fresh cut lawn!) until he can slim down to a working weight...In the meantime, neither of those bulls is making any money!

That is the response I was looking for. Much appreciated.

I feed my weaned bulls less than 4 pounds of 12 % protein feed per day. Mainly to get them to come up every day. But my pastures are very rich. I may need to put them on reduced pasture. Thanks.

Ron, I'm feeding my weaned bulls 10 pounds a day of 14% protein ration, and they have good pasture. They could eat more, but I will gradually add to that amount as they gain over time. At about 15-16 months they are ready, or at least how I like them to be. After that point they get about 3 pounds of 14% ration a day.

Those bulls in the drone video I posted get 3 pounds a day. They definitely are not too fat to perform, quite the contrary, they are turn key ready for service.

Feeding twice a day is ideal, three times a day is best. For example, 10 pounds total, split up either two or three times. Your bulls could easily handle 10-12 pounds per day if you split it up. Your bulls have the genetics to benefit from such feeding. Now if I could just get you to head over to Southern States for the 14% X-stress with the performance pack. LOL!

 

[CattleMan1920]

Both of these are pictured in what I consider optimal working condition.

I would have more confidence in the first bull and it has nothing to do with color.

Why so? The black bull is pictured at 7 years old, the red at 18 months...

Both are really nice bulls, maybe it's the photo. I liked the black one better. There is nothing wrong with the red one though, he's in great shape.

 

[bball]

I thought someone(maybe Sim-ang king) posted recently about feeding 1% of body weight of a 12% protein feed to help develop bulls. With quality hay I believe. I thought that was simple, useful info. Easy to recall. Easy math. At what age/ weight do you consider a bull developed?

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

I would have more confidence in the first bull and it has nothing to do with color.

Why so? The black bull is pictured at 7 years old, the red at 18 months...

Both are really nice bulls, maybe it's the photo. I liked the black one better. There is nothing wrong with the red one though, he's in great shape.

Fair enough. Both are vastly different animals, but both have their uses. I chose those pictures merely based on the age difference to highlight my thoughts on conditioning of bulls, regardless of age or time on the tanbark.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Nice looking bulls RBB!
I had some experience with an overfed herd bull before. Bought him at 22months age. Bulls in that farm are fed heavily and are kept in the barn after weaning. He was in a nice condition at the time, not too fat actually. Bought him in winter. Kept him for a month to get used to us and then let out with a couple heifers and cows. Not many for the first season, +-20females to serve. Out pastures aren't very rich, so cows often slim down abit then put the weight back on. Dry cows are in a nice condition after the grazing season, but not very fat. However, cows can raise calves pretty well, so it shouldn't be a problem for a bull to keep his weight on. In the first season bull has lost some condition. Winter with only hay but hardly any cow to breed has done a bigger damage for his weight. He put on some weight during next season, with approx 30females to breed, but he wasn't in a shape I'd liked him to be before winter so had to separate him from the herd and give him some meal to put some weight back on. He got around 25females to breed and was sold in fall to another farm. By the fall he didn't looked the same as in spring.
On the contrary, had another bull bought at 13months age from another farm. He was pretty small for his age, got just abit of meal after weaning. We weren't feeding much of meal at that time too, so he was growing slower and had hardly any fat when we let him out with cows, but he lost more weight only on his first year. Then he would naturally would put some fat during winter, then loose it during summer, but would still look great, with nice muscles. He had to cover the same amount of cows as another one, but did way better at keeping his weight and he didn't needed any extra supplementing.