Demise of the Family Farm

[Dave]

Define a "family farm". I am surrounded by family farms who seem to be doing just fine. Before I retired I worked with a number of family farms. Can you make it milking 35 cows or running 50 beef cows? The answer is no. But there are a lot of families running 200 to 300 cows and doing just fine. I know people milking 200 with one employee. The majority of farms in this country are family operations. If they are incorporated it is for tax purposes.

Are they running on government land too?

Get over the government land thing. There are actual cost studies that show the real cost to run cows on government land is more expensive than on private pastures. Does it take you a good half a day to put out salt? The water troughs we just installed a couple weeks ago it takes 3 hours round trip to get there and back. So 3 hours to check if the water it running. People started gathering cows 2 months ago and there are still cows in the hills. If you think the government land is such a cheap easy deal come on up and try it out.

 

[HDRider]

Define a "family farm". I am surrounded by family farms who seem to be doing just fine. Before I retired I worked with a number of family farms. Can you make it milking 35 cows or running 50 beef cows? The answer is no. But there are a lot of families running 200 to 300 cows and doing just fine. I know people milking 200 with one employee. The majority of farms in this country are family operations. If they are incorporated it is for tax purposes.

Are they running on government land too?

Get over the government land thing. There are actual cost studies that show the real cost to run cows on government land is more expensive than on private pastures. Does it take you a good half a day to put out salt? The water troughs we just installed a couple weeks ago it takes 3 hours round trip to get there and back. So 3 hours to check if the water it running. People started gathering cows 2 months ago and there are still cows in the hills. If you think the government land is such a cheap easy deal come on up and try it out.

Government land does sound like an entitlement not available to everyone. It appears to be an unfair advantage. You point to profits, I point to how they are made.

 

[HDRider]

Define a "family farm". I am surrounded by family farms who seem to be doing just fine. Before I retired I worked with a number of family farms. Can you make it milking 35 cows or running 50 beef cows? The answer is no. But there are a lot of families running 200 to 300 cows and doing just fine. I know people milking 200 with one employee. The majority of farms in this country are family operations. If they are incorporated it is for tax purposes.

Are they running on government land too?

Government land are not you can bet their getting run on country, as cattle should be. Not getting feed dumped over the fence everyday. ....much like they raise cattle in Brazil. efficiently

I can see where great expanses of land would offer advantages over those with more limited acreage.

I don't feed.

 

[Ky hills]

Bottom line things change and not always for the better or for the worse it depends on who is in the best position to take on the new changes.
Years ago folks here lived off the land as much as possible. If they had much land at all they had a milk cow or two, a few beef cows, sheep, hogs and chickens. They raised gardens and canned the extras. In my early life we had a local stockyards, two tobacco warehouses, a John Deere tractor dealer. At that time we had GM, Chevrolet, Ford and eventually a Dodge dealer. Now we have no stockyards or tobacco warehouses in this town, and we have lost the Ford dealership, the Chevrolet and GMC dealerships have been combined under new ownership. I had the unfortunate opportunity to buy a private paint store in our dying downtown. Folks thought it was the right thing to do because farming was not practical to make a living. The big box stores out on the by pass soon attracted about all of the business as no one wants to go downtown anymore lamenting there is nothing there. Lost on that deal now trying to keep the boat floating on the farm. Hindsight if I had invested in farm I would have been just as well off and in a better position today. I really do believe that there is hope for some farms the trends of specializing production have changed everything but smaller niche markets can be successful too IF the right niche is found. I think the smaller farms are at a serious disadvantage but I think some are still viable. The heart of the problem is if all of the small farms were to fold up, the current larger farms would likely not see any bump in profits because the current trends of importing would just be all the more favorable. The local economies are struggling in a lot of areas and rural communities are largely reliant on agriculture for what it does for those communities.

 

[Dave]

Are they running on government land too?

Get over the government land thing. There are actual cost studies that show the real cost to run cows on government land is more expensive than on private pastures. Does it take you a good half a day to put out salt? The water troughs we just installed a couple weeks ago it takes 3 hours round trip to get there and back. So 3 hours to check if the water it running. People started gathering cows 2 months ago and there are still cows in the hills. If you think the government land is such a cheap easy deal come on up and try it out.

Government land does sound like an entitlement not available to everyone. It appears to be an unfair advantage. You point to profits, I point to how they are made.

They are available to everyone. All you have to do is buy or lease the rights from someone who already has them, just as you can buy or lease pasture from an individual who owns a pasture. The value of my BLM allotments was definitely calculated into the purchase price of my place. The BLM leases are certainly not the way profits are made. As I stated there are actual studies that show the real cost of government grazing leases is more expensive than private pasture. Good marketing decisions, being extremely frugal with purchases, doing literally everything yourself, working 24/7/365, sharing with neighbors, and doing without for years lead to building a profitable business.

 

[callmefence]

Are they running on government land too?

Get over the government land thing. There are actual cost studies that show the real cost to run cows on government land is more expensive than on private pastures. Does it take you a good half a day to put out salt? The water troughs we just installed a couple weeks ago it takes 3 hours round trip to get there and back. So 3 hours to check if the water it running. People started gathering cows 2 months ago and there are still cows in the hills. If you think the government land is such a cheap easy deal come on up and try it out.

Government land does sound like an entitlement not available to everyone. It appears to be an unfair advantage. You point to profits, I point to how they are made.

Good grief... :roll:

 

[HDRider]

Get over the government land thing. There are actual cost studies that show the real cost to run cows on government land is more expensive than on private pastures. Does it take you a good half a day to put out salt? The water troughs we just installed a couple weeks ago it takes 3 hours round trip to get there and back. So 3 hours to check if the water it running. People started gathering cows 2 months ago and there are still cows in the hills. If you think the government land is such a cheap easy deal come on up and try it out.

Government land does sound like an entitlement not available to everyone. It appears to be an unfair advantage. You point to profits, I point to how they are made.

They are available to everyone. All you have to do is buy or lease the rights from someone who already has them, just as you can buy or lease pasture from an individual who owns a pasture. The value of my BLM allotments was definitely calculated into the purchase price of my place. The BLM leases are certainly not the way profits are made. As I stated there are actual studies that show the real cost of government grazing leases is more expensive than private pasture. Good marketing decisions, being extremely frugal with purchases, doing literally everything yourself, working 24/7/365, sharing with neighbors, and doing without for years lead to building a profitable business.

So it is not only an entitlement you profit from while you use it, but you can sell it for a profit too. Good gig. Do I remember correctly, you inherited your government land?

 

[greybeard]

Get over the government land thing. There are actual cost studies that show the real cost to run cows on government land is more expensive than on private pastures. Does it take you a good half a day to put out salt? The water troughs we just installed a couple weeks ago it takes 3 hours round trip to get there and back. So 3 hours to check if the water it running. People started gathering cows 2 months ago and there are still cows in the hills. If you think the government land is such a cheap easy deal come on up and try it out.

Government land does sound like an entitlement not available to everyone. It appears to be an unfair advantage. You point to profits, I point to how they are made.

Good grief... :roll:

X10!!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Some just don't get it.

 

[Dave]

Government land does sound like an entitlement not available to everyone. It appears to be an unfair advantage. You point to profits, I point to how they are made.

They are available to everyone. All you have to do is buy or lease the rights from someone who already has them, just as you can buy or lease pasture from an individual who owns a pasture. The value of my BLM allotments was definitely calculated into the purchase price of my place. The BLM leases are certainly not the way profits are made. As I stated there are actual studies that show the real cost of government grazing leases is more expensive than private pasture. Good marketing decisions, being extremely frugal with purchases, doing literally everything yourself, working 24/7/365, sharing with neighbors, and doing without for years lead to building a profitable business.

So it is not only an entitlement you profit from while you use it, but you can sell it for a profit too. Good gig. Do I remember correctly, you inherited your government land?

You need help with read comprehension. Look at the third sentence. I clearly state. "The value of my BLM allotments was definitely calculated into the purchase price of my place." BLM allotments were made back in the late 30's and 40's. I bought this place in 2018. It is not an entitlement. Is a mineral right to a property an entitlement? It is not even as secure as a mineral right. The BLM can and does decrease the number of animals allowed and the timing of grazing. They also can just flat eliminate all grazing at their digression. In that case you are just flat out with no recourse. Fences and water are the responsibility of the allotment holder. And that is miles and miles of fence. And it generally cost about $10,000 to develop a spring. None of this is along the county road or any other road for that matter. Studies show that it is more profitable to run cows on private leases. So why aren't you finding pasture to lease?

 

[greybeard]

I'm jealous too Dave. You have high ground that doesn't flood, an advantage not all of us have.
:lol2:

 

[HDRider]

They are available to everyone. All you have to do is buy or lease the rights from someone who already has them, just as you can buy or lease pasture from an individual who owns a pasture. The value of my BLM allotments was definitely calculated into the purchase price of my place. The BLM leases are certainly not the way profits are made. As I stated there are actual studies that show the real cost of government grazing leases is more expensive than private pasture. Good marketing decisions, being extremely frugal with purchases, doing literally everything yourself, working 24/7/365, sharing with neighbors, and doing without for years lead to building a profitable business.

So it is not only an entitlement you profit from while you use it, but you can sell it for a profit too. Good gig. Do I remember correctly, you inherited your government land?

You need help with read comprehension. Look at the third sentence. I clearly state. "The value of my BLM allotments was definitely calculated into the purchase price of my place." BLM allotments were made back in the late 30's and 40's. I bought this place in 2018. It is not an entitlement. Is a mineral right to a property an entitlement? It is not even as secure as a mineral right. The BLM can and does decrease the number of animals allowed and the timing of grazing. They also can just flat eliminate all grazing at their digression. In that case you are just flat out with no recourse. Fences and water are the responsibility of the allotment holder. And that is miles and miles of fence. And it generally cost about $10,000 to develop a spring. None of this is along the county road or any other road for that matter. Studies show that it is more profitable to run cows on private leases. So why aren't you finding pasture to lease?

How can you equate mineral rights to land I bought to you grazing on land of which I am part owner?

 

[greybeard]

Go take the part you own back from Dave.
Problem solved.

(good luck with that tho)

 

[HDRider]

I'm jealous too Dave. You have high ground that doesn't flood, an advantage not all of us have.
:lol2:

I don't think he has the high ground, figuratively speaking. And, jealousy has nothing to do with it.

I just get tired of him bragging about making big money, running on big land with big numbers, and implying that a small guy is too stupid to make a profit, when he in fact profits on the very tit he pretends to find distasteful.

I got no problem with a BTO making big money, but it does stick in my craw when a STO can't even cover the most minimal of operating expenses, when it is plain to see who is controlling the market, and how they are doing it.

 

[HDRider]

Go take the part you own back from Dave.
Problem solved.

(good luck with that tho)

You a funny guy

 

[greybeard]

One word.
Move!

The old adage is:
If ya can back it up, it's not braggin.

I suspect Dave is paying a per AUM lease fee for the BLM or USDAFS land.

 

[HDRider]

One word.
Move!

The old adage is:
If ya can back it up, it's not braggin.

I suspect Dave is paying a per AUM lease fee for the BLM or USDAFS land.

Like I said, you a funny guy

 

[Dave]

I'm jealous too Dave. You have high ground that doesn't flood, an advantage not all of us have.
:lol2:

I do have high ground that doesn't flood. The house sits at about 2,700 feet. The top of the hill behind that house is 4,700 feet. Deeded ground that I do own by the way. If that hill floods we are all in deep trouble. The down side is it is covered with snow now and will be until some time in April.

By the way no BLM ground in that picture. I own all of it and about 3 times more.

 

[jltrent]

That is beautiful.......

 

[Bright Raven]

I'm jealous too Dave. You have high ground that doesn't flood, an advantage not all of us have.
:lol2:

I don't think he has the high ground, figuratively speaking. And, jealousy has nothing to do with it.

I just get tired of him bragging about making big money, running on big land with big numbers, and implying that a small guy is too stupid to make a profit, when he in fact profits on the very tit he pretends to find distasteful.

I got no problem with a BTO making big money, but it does stick in my craw when a STO can't even cover the most minimal of operating expenses, when it is plain to see who is controlling the market, and how they are doing it.

Preface: I am not putting my horse in this race. I just want to post the following:

I lived 33 years in Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana. I made friends with many, many ranchers. They let me hunt on their land, we went skiing with rancher friends and I kept up with the local goings on. I read Dave's comment the other day about the local ranchers going on vacations, etc. as evidence that they were doing well. Maybe they are and maybe they are not. Sometimes that kind of anecdotal evidence is deceptive. They may be burning a lot of old "family money". I know for a fact, lots of ranchers struggle to make ends meet. In fact, I witnessed local foreclosures on what looked like profitable ranching operations. I can promise you lots of big land ranchers struggle. I hunted on lots of big ranches with multiple sections of BLM and state land. None of them looked like they were getting rich. I have sat at their table and seen how they live. Most are no different than the poor hillbillies I see around here. I could go on.

I am not disputing ANYTHING Dave has said but my observations were not as rosy as his.

 

[littletom]

Someone told me the other day the profitable farmers now, know what they are doing. The ones left are good at what they do and run a sharp pencil. Their are alot of farmers around me doing well making money, and expanding. You can not support 4 adults milking 45 cows from the original link.