Cow turnover rate

[True Grit Farms]

I have known my share of rough cobs who spend their life at the Stockyards. The ones around here don't give a hoot what the genetics behind a cow are! They don't care about anything but getting a calf on the ground. If you ask them about breeding "to fit the environment" , they will think you are trying to salvage their soul, then they will get up and go to the lobby for a cup of free coffee.

Definitely getting a live calf is the first order of business. How a cow handles being a cow under your management style is more important than genetics. Good read for all cattlemen. Some folks have already figured this out using the school of hard knocks.

The use of genetic selection tools by cattle breeders has resulted in significant changes within the majority of major breeds over the last 30 years. With a few exceptions, the overwhelming genetic trend for milk, weaning weight, and mature weight over that time has been for more. Without question, the use of Expected Progeny Differences (EPD) has enabled this change. The question at hand, however, is "have we selected towards that which is optimal?" The late Dr. Bob Taylor from Colorado State University said it well, "Profitable cattle are usually productive, but productive cattle are not always profitable."

Four different benchmark data sets for commercial cow-calf producers from the states of Minnesota, North Dakota, Kansas, as well as Texas, New Mexico and Oklahoma have shown little to no change in average weaning weights or calf weaning rates in terms of the percentage of calves weaned per cow exposed over the last 15 years. This has to prompt the question why? How can it be that there has been such significant genetic change in several breeds that should increase weaning weights, but records from several commercial cow-calf data sets would indicate that there has been relatively no change?

In 2014, Dr. David Lalman from Oklahoma State University made a presentation at the Applied Reproductive Strategies in Beef Cattle meeting titled "Matching Cows to Forage Resources in a World of Mixed Messages." In that presentation, Dr. Lalman made the case that the genetic potential of many cattle today are beyond the nutrient levels that are provided by forage resources thus hindering the ability of animals to express their genetic potential. He presented data that would indicate that the cost of maintaining larger cows with higher milk potential exceeds the value produced by small increases in calf weaning weights.

In 1988, Dr. Rick Bourdon, wrote a paper titled "Bovine Nirvana – From the Perspective of a Modeler and Purebred Breeder" where he presented the case that genetic selection should be toward the optimum for what a set of resources or environment could support. Dr. Bourdon stated, "To breed for optimum means to have a target insight beyond which you don't want to go. If your goal is to maintain an optimum level for any trait, the evidence of your accomplishment is not visible change, but lack of it."

Cow-calf producers have EPDs and index tools to make genetic selection decisions related to traits that impact levels of productivity and longevity. Producers selecting sires from which to develop replacement heifers would be well served to evaluate where their cow herd is compared to what they believe optimum to be. Producers can work with beef cattle genetic specialists and breed association representatives to help them identify what EPD levels for milk, weaning weight and mature weight best meet their target. What a producer identifies as optimum in terms of milk production, weaning weight and mature size can vary significantly from one operation to another depending upon resources available and management. When optimum is identified, sires can be selected to produce daughters whose maintenance energy, longevity, level of milk production and mature weight will move the cow herd toward identified goals given available resources.

Identifying and selecting optimum genetics for milk production and mature weight is a genetics selection approach that may require a change in focus for many cow-calf producers. It may mean selecting sires at a bull sale that are at or below breed average to move the cow herd genetically toward a desired level for certain traits. Selecting a bull that is "below breed average" is a paradigm shift for many cow-calf producers. Identifying a window of optimum given a set of resources and then selecting cattle that hit the optimum target is the goal under this method of cattle breeding. Success in selecting for optimum means that for many producers they will be selecting sires whose EPDs for milk production and mature weight will decrease the average in their herd. Simultaneously, they should be using EPDs to select for traits that will maintain or improve fertility and longevity. Genetic selection and breeding programs should focus on increased profit, and in many cases this may mean selection for decreased mature weight and milk production to move future replacements for the cowherd towards optimum.

 

[Brute 23]

There are no tax benefits to buying vs retaining.

Capital gain tax rate vs. ordinary income tax rate ?

I can not think of a situation where a cow would appreciate in cost over over 15 years?

I'm all ears if you can share how you used capital gains in a scenario that justified buying vs retaining?

 

[Brute 23]

Talking about buying cows at the auction barn is like talking to people about buying stock. They only tell you the good stories, the ones that worked out, and how much they made. They dont show you the whole picture.

There is no doubt there is a niche market for buying an cattle and reselling them. Using the ab for a source of cattle long term in a cow/ calf operation of size will not pan out long term.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Talking about buying cows at the auction barn is like talking to people about buying stock. They only tell you the good stories, the ones that worked out, and how much they made. They dont show you the whole picture.

There is no doubt there is a niche market for buying an cattle and reselling them. Using the ab for a source of cattle long term in a cow/ calf operation of size will not pan out long term.

That's an opinion and it's just like a butthole and they both stink.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I bought two beautiful heavy Brahman influenced 4 wts a while back.
I figure I have over 2k in them just now calving. I'm not sure they will ever pencil out with today's prices and inputs.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

There's excellent cows sold at the sale barn everyday. You just need to weed through them.

Lots of problems being passed along as well.

Putting in seat time and doing your homework is mandatory to making quality purchases. But that can be said for about anything you buy.

Yeah, I'm going to do that for a freakin' used cow.

 

[Brute 23]

Talking about buying cows at the auction barn is like talking to people about buying stock. They only tell you the good stories, the ones that worked out, and how much they made. They dont show you the whole picture.

There is no doubt there is a niche market for buying an cattle and reselling them. Using the ab for a source of cattle long term in a cow/ calf operation of size will not pan out long term.

That's an opinion and it's just like a butthole and they both stink.

Its based in real experience.

I have a friend who leases large tracts of land. Any thing less than 3000ac he uses to grow out heifers or turns steers out on. All his cow/calf places are 5, 10, 15K acres, plus. When he leases a large property he moves as many heifers as possible and fills in the rest with sale barn cattle. He will place orders for 500 cows at a time. He has two reasons for that. One is he says he wants a couple years to get a feel for the land owners and if it is a long term deal. Secondly, he says he can't swing the upfront dollars to purchase 500 animals of quality in one lick like that. Over the next 3 to 5 years he will replace those auction barn cattle with heifers he has raised.

Another friend is taking care of a place right now where the owner had some one purchase 250 sale barn cows. My friend was very unhappy about it given our experience from our other friend who has been doing it for years. He has had similar results. They are replacing the cows that were culled with private treaty heifers from some of us that he know.

Even at that, most of us who have cattle and jobs can not make the rounds during the week to hit every noon sale and buy cattle. That is just not realistic and reason enough to not consider it a main stream option. Yes CB, most of us dream to be in your position one day to be able to do that.

I will also add... young people better get your cost per lb of quality under control. Long term, IMO beef is headed in the direction of farming. There are big players coming in to the game commercializing the production side. Im afraid the "I just need a calf" people will not make it long term.
:tiphat:

 

[Caustic Burno]

Again just your experience Brute.
That and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Having someone buy your cattle for you will get expensive very quickly. Even when I'm buying I never bid on more than 10% of the cows that are run through the ring.

 

[callmefence]

If you're obsessed with genetics. Spend your free time obsessing over pedigrees and epds etc....you best stay out of the salebarn.....it's the arena real professional cattlemen play in.
You might get hurt. Stick to Craigslist

 

[Nesikep]

Four different benchmark data sets for commercial cow-calf producers from the states of Minnesota, North Dakota, Kansas, as well as Texas, New Mexico and Oklahoma have shown little to no change in average weaning weights or calf weaning rates in terms of the percentage of calves weaned per cow exposed over the last 15 years. This has to prompt the question why? How can it be that there has been such significant genetic change in several breeds that should increase weaning weights, but records from several commercial cow-calf data sets would indicate that there has been relatively no change?

Could it be that the purebred breeders are just getting better at feeding the heck out of their animals.. The genetics they have aren't changing significantly only the feed ration is.. Meanwhile the commercial guys buying these sires haven't changed their feed, so they aren't getting any better weaning weights.
The whole thing about EPD's is the management needs to be consistent in order to compare them, and that's certainly not the case.

 

[Nesikep]

Again just your experience Brute.
That and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee.

Speaking of opinions, you seem to have plenty here.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Again just your experience Brute.
That and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee.

Speaking of opinions, you seem to have plenty here.

Yep and they have the same value as yours, absolutely nothing.

 

[Nesikep]

Again just your experience Brute.
That and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee.

Speaking of opinions, you seem to have plenty here.

Yep and they have the same value as yours, absolutely nothing.

That's just opinion

 

[True Grit Farms]

Four different benchmark data sets for commercial cow-calf producers from the states of Minnesota, North Dakota, Kansas, as well as Texas, New Mexico and Oklahoma have shown little to no change in average weaning weights or calf weaning rates in terms of the percentage of calves weaned per cow exposed over the last 15 years. This has to prompt the question why? How can it be that there has been such significant genetic change in several breeds that should increase weaning weights, but records from several commercial cow-calf data sets would indicate that there has been relatively no change?

Could it be that the purebred breeders are just getting better at feeding the heck out of their animals.. The genetics they have aren't changing significantly only the feed ration is.. Meanwhile the commercial guys buying these sires haven't changed their feed, so they aren't getting any better weaning weights.
The whole thing about EPD's is the management needs to be consistent in order to compare them, and that's certainly not the case.

Nesikep, genetics play a major role in cattle. But most commercial cattleman can't afford the inputs to realize the genetics they already have in their herd.

 

[Nesikep]

Four different benchmark data sets for commercial cow-calf producers from the states of Minnesota, North Dakota, Kansas, as well as Texas, New Mexico and Oklahoma have shown little to no change in average weaning weights or calf weaning rates in terms of the percentage of calves weaned per cow exposed over the last 15 years. This has to prompt the question why? How can it be that there has been such significant genetic change in several breeds that should increase weaning weights, but records from several commercial cow-calf data sets would indicate that there has been relatively no change?

Could it be that the purebred breeders are just getting better at feeding the heck out of their animals.. The genetics they have aren't changing significantly only the feed ration is.. Meanwhile the commercial guys buying these sires haven't changed their feed, so they aren't getting any better weaning weights.
The whole thing about EPD's is the management needs to be consistent in order to compare them, and that's certainly not the case.

Nesikep, genetics play a major role in cattle. But most commercial cattleman can't afford the inputs to realize the genetics they already have in their herd.

Yup.. Been covered here a few times,.. Of course bigger cows with more milk will wean heavier calves, so feed the calf and the momma grain to keep them at their peak performance, get those 900 lb weaning weights and 1500 lb yearling weights.
Meanwhile a lot of people are trying to go for a 1200 lb mature cow size.. Something doesn't add up here.
I'm somewhere in the middle, I find the 14-1500 lb mature size works well for me, they wean good calves without having to be anal about birthweights. If I can get the same size of cow to wean a bigger calf and keep condition, breed back, and not fall apart when she's 8 years old, then I'm getting somewhere... Not quite there yet though.

 

[Bright Raven]

Now that it has been established that none of this has any value, we are getting somewhere. It comes down to what is often the conclusion of most of these discussions - everyone has their own ideas, biases, successes and failures in being cattle producers. There are many factors in what contributes to a profit or loss. I wonder if it is more a function of the individual than it is the methods they use. Some people make money doing what other people go broke at.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Sometimes just different bookkeeping. :shock:
Usually performing a bit better than average in several areas.
Generically called management.

 

[Lucky]

Lets look at actual out of pocket cost on keeping replacements vs. buying bred heifers.

I bought a group of heavy bread heifers for $1,750 last year and sold the cull cows for $500. So I was out $1,250. They calved out quick and cost me about $50 a head in feed that winter (got them end of February). Calf on ground cost $1,300 out of pocket.

This year I'm keeping a group of my own. Today they are worth $950 so that's my purchase price. I sold culls for $500 so I'm down to $450 out of pocket. It cost me right at $100 a head to winter them from weaning to breeding age along with the steer yearlings so back up to $550. If you get technical They was worth about $650 at weaning and it cost $100 to get her to $900 so you could knock of another $150 if you wanted. Now I figure another $275 in feed and meds to get her calf on the ground. So $675-$825 out of pocket depending on how you figure it.

It seems cheaper to raise your own if you can raise the quality you want and have a little extra pasture to set aside. I raised the yearlings all winter on 50 acres and plan on raising these heifers on the same 50 acres until they calve. Dry heifers don't require near the resources a cow/calf pair does so I can run them on half the ground as a wet cow.

I understand the deal about buying a 4-5 yo cow for $750-900 and getting a calf that same year but there's just too many variables in the two to make a really good comparison. At the end of the day it's all in what kind of herd you really want and how much TIME you have to get there. Mainly I don't like trading cows every year or two. I want a cow to last allot of years. Maybe my math or thinking is wrong on this.

 

[Ebenezer]

Looks like you'd have to charge a time and labor fee plus hauling and vet bills to sit in the barns, travel back and forth, avoid other work, ... to be a trader/buyer type or is time cheap?