Cow turnover rate

[Ebenezer]

The retained heifer cost is high and a number not figured in by most come replacement time.

Depends on how you develop them.

Not really, the dam returned nothing to the bottom line for two years along with the retained heifer.
Using a dollar a day upkeeps and that is cheap you have 1460 bucks in that heifer. That's not counting another 205 days until the heifers return a dollar back to the operation, using the same dollar you now have 1665 dollars in her.
If she falls over dead there is no other write off in her as she is retained and other than upkeep, she has no value unless sold.

So they sell the best heifers for replacements around your area? Or do you go to the barn and buy a bred cow that others or I sold because of some reason for not wanting her? The trick is not to need too many replacement heifers and that takes a heaping helping of fertile and functional females with longevity. I do not think you can buy many like that when you need them. Buying does help with basis and taxes.

 

[Caustic Burno]

There for sale every day, it's easy to fool yourself. See it every day called pasture blindness. If your bovine was that special order buyers would have a trail wore out to your door.

 

[Silver]

Somehow this little operation has managed to stay afloat raising nearly all it's replacements for about 70 years. Probably just lucky.
I factor in the expense of raising replacements so have a good idea what it costs. I think it's also worth considering that the dollars received for the cull cow that is sold to make way for the replacement be factored into the cost of the replacement.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Cow Turnover:
Northern Great Plains beef cow culling averages 15 to 18% per year. Could be a lot less if we had eared cattle. ;-)

But you don't want to be average because then you will not make a profit. Profit seekers fall into several different cow culling camps. There is no one answer:

1) Breed cows that last forever. Unfortunately, the remaining teenagers are usually a small part of the heifers you calved out ten plus years before.
2) Haunt the sales barn to buy cows at just above kill prices. Have to really like cattle sales because of the time involved. Expect to bring home some health issues.
3) Sell cows in their prime to minimize depreciation. Some rep and some marketing skill are usually required.
4) Sell cows when there is a drought. This will cut your short term losses, but you will need to sell outside the dry area to get a decent price.
5) Only retain heifers during the upward transition part of the cattle price cycle, and then sell all or most at the peak. Should have a crystal ball for this.

Financial Efficiency:
Scary stuff. Need more info on how you measure it - - $/cow, $/acre, $/hr, ROI, Net Worth, NPV, kids salary, ...

Initially I focused on $/acre and did #2. But that was too easy, so now I am thinking about ROI and looking at #5. :cowboy:

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

The retained heifer cost is high and a number not figured in by most come replacement time.

Depends on how you develop them.

Not really, the dam returned nothing to the bottom line for two years along with the retained heifer.
Using a dollar a day upkeeps and that is cheap you have 1460 bucks in that heifer. That's not counting another 205 days until the heifers return a dollar back to the operation, using the same dollar you now have 1665 dollars in her.
If she falls over dead there is no other write off in her as she is retained and other than upkeep, she has no value unless sold.

I'm glad to see you utilizing the tax code as designed.

 

[JMJ Farms]

The retained heifer cost is high and a number not figured in by most come replacement time.

Depends on how you develop them.

Not really, the dam returned nothing to the bottom line for two years along with the retained heifer.
Using a dollar a day upkeeps and that is cheap you have 1460 bucks in that heifer. That's not counting another 205 days until the heifers return a dollar back to the operation, using the same dollar you now have 1665 dollars in her.
If she falls over dead there is no other write off in her as she is retained and other than upkeep, she has no value unless sold.

While I agree that it's cheaper to buy bred cows than to retain heifers, I also understand the benefit of retaining genetics and longevity from your best cows. I compensate by doing some of both.

CB, I don't completely agree with your figures. The dam didn't return anything for (1) year. Her next calf is in the pipeline as it would have been. So you only lose that one calf, the retained heifer calf. So, using your figures, that would be $730(+)$205(=)$935. Which is probably a little conservative. I haven't tried to figure it exactly but I think it would probably be closer to $1100.

And I will add.... If there is a good source for replacement cows or heifers that will make good momma cows close by, then I'd be all for buying instead of retaining. If for no other reason than the fact that it's much faster and we are all on borrowed time. Problem is they are hard to come by HERE without paying double what they're worth.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Depends on how you develop them.

Not really, the dam returned nothing to the bottom line for two years along with the retained heifer.
Using a dollar a day upkeeps and that is cheap you have 1460 bucks in that heifer. That's not counting another 205 days until the heifers return a dollar back to the operation, using the same dollar you now have 1665 dollars in her.
If she falls over dead there is no other write off in her as she is retained and other than upkeep, she has no value unless sold.

While I agree that it's cheaper to buy bred cows than to retain heifers, I also understand the benefit of retaining genetics and longevity from your best cows. I compensate by doing some of both.

CB, I don't completely agree with your figures. The dam didn't return anything for (1) year. Her next calf is in the pipeline as it would have been. So you only lose that one calf, the retained heifer calf. So, using your figures, that would be $730(+)$205(=)$935. Which is probably a little conservative. I haven't tried to figure it exactly but I think it would probably be closer to $1100.

And I will add.... If there is a good source for replacement cows or heifers that will make good momma cows close by, then I'd be all for buying instead of retaining. If for no other reason than the fact that it's much faster and we are all on borrowed time. Problem is they are hard to come by HERE without paying double what they're worth.

Better check your math if you retain the Dam was maintained two years, returning nothing to the operation.
The heifer will not return anything either for two years.
If the dam bred back the day she calved the retained heifer it would be 283 days before she calves again.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Under what conditions do you think replacement heifer development pays ?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Under what conditions do you think replacement heifer development pays ?

Genetics in seedstock.
It doesn't pay in commercial to retain
when factoring In cull cow price towards replacement. Dollar wise your replacement cost is cheaper than your inputs with a faster return to the operation.

 

[Silver]

I believe I will just continue down the path of destruction to my inevitable doom.

 

[JMJ Farms]

Not really, the dam returned nothing to the bottom line for two years along with the retained heifer.
Using a dollar a day upkeeps and that is cheap you have 1460 bucks in that heifer. That's not counting another 205 days until the heifers return a dollar back to the operation, using the same dollar you now have 1665 dollars in her.
If she falls over dead there is no other write off in her as she is retained and other than upkeep, she has no value unless sold.

While I agree that it's cheaper to buy bred cows than to retain heifers, I also understand the benefit of retaining genetics and longevity from your best cows. I compensate by doing some of both.

CB, I don't completely agree with your figures. The dam didn't return anything for (1) year. Her next calf is in the pipeline as it would have been. So you only lose that one calf, the retained heifer calf. So, using your figures, that would be $730(+)$205(=)$935. Which is probably a little conservative. I haven't tried to figure it exactly but I think it would probably be closer to $1100.

And I will add.... If there is a good source for replacement cows or heifers that will make good momma cows close by, then I'd be all for buying instead of retaining. If for no other reason than the fact that it's much faster and we are all on borrowed time. Problem is they are hard to come by HERE without paying double what they're worth.

Better check your math if you retain the Dam was maintained two years, returning nothing to the operation.
The heifer will not return anything either for two years.
If the dam bred back the day she calved the retained heifer it would be 283 days before she calves again.

My math is good. We just aren't on the same page.

Scenario 1 - Normal terminal calves
Day 1 - Cow is bred
Day 283 - Cow calves
Day 373 - Cow breeds back
Day 488 - Calf is weaned and sold
Day 508 - Cow calves again
Day 713 - 2nd Calf is sold
Scenario 2 - Heifer is retained
Day 1 - Cow is bred
Day 283 - Cow calves
Day 373 - Cow breeds back
Day 488- Heifer is retained
Day 508 - Cow calves again
Day 713 - 2nd Calf is sold

Nothing changes with the exception of the fact that with terminal calves, you sold (2) calves in 713 days. With the retained heifer, you sold (1) calf in 713 days. You only "lose" income attributable to one calf, the retained heifer. So the very most $ you can attribute to feeding the dam would be
488 days, and this wouldn't be completely accurate. But let's say it is.
According to your number of $1/day.....

Dam - 488 days @ $1/day = $488
Heifer from birth till calving - 730 days @ $1/day = $730

$488 (+) $730 = $1228

My numbers would be more like this.

Dam - 365 days @ $1.25/day = $456.25
Heifer from birth to weaning - 205 days at .50/day = 102.50
Heifer from weaning to calving - 525 days @ $1/day = $525.

$456.25 (+) $102.50 (+) $525 = $1083.75.

These numbers are all hypothetical and really don't matter, because point is that you can only attribute the maintenance cost of the dam for (1) year, to the cost of the replacement heifer.

This post is in no way intended to be rude, disrespectful, or anything of the sort. If I'm wrong in my figuring, someone please correct me.

Edited to add:
If good replacements are readily available, I still believe you are better off to take the $ the retained heifer would have brought at the sale barn on weaning day, let's assume $750 (+) the the $525 it's gonna take to feed her until she calves, and buy heavy bred cows. Money will come back lots quicker.

 

[Caustic Burno]

The part your missing is you upkept the dam with no return on investment + you have kept the retained heifer for 760 days. That is from weaning to selling her calf. The dam had 365 days in upkeep when the retained heifer was born, if the cow settles in 90 days + 283 until the next cal with 205 till weaning. You actually maintained the dam over 900 days before she returns to the operation.
Don't cheat yourself.
Nothing wrong with retaining, it just is not free as many want to think.

I will never argue the positive in genetics in seedstock. Commercial it doesn't pencil out.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Genetics in seedstock.
It doesn't pay in commercial to retain
when factoring In cull cow price towards replacement. Dollar wise your replacement cost is cheaper than your inputs with a faster return to the operation.

I had been able raise a bred heifer for the market price in recent years. Heifer calves were heavily discounted, and hay was cheap till a couple months ago. But unless I lease or come up with more pasture - - I am missing out on raising half a calf per heifer. So how much profit opportunity is there in half a calf? If you are losing money on your calves, then heifer development could reduce your calf losses. :???:

 

[Stocker Steve]

So time till you see some income is a huge profitability factor when interest costs are high, or margins are low.

We have a few extreme operators here who buy bred cows in winter, don't try to re bred them, and sell all the cows along with their calves in early fall. What do you think of this?

 

[Caustic Burno]

I have bought SS heavies for years in the spring and sell pairs in the fall.
My target price is 100 dollars over kill cow prices.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I have bought SS heavies for years in the spring and sell pairs in the fall.
My target price is 100 dollars over kill cow prices.

Young pairs, and fall is best gazing season there?

 

[True Grit Farms]

The commercial cattleman that make their living with cattle retain their best heifer calves for replacements, I think I will also. I like to buy thin bred young cows, calve them out and see what kind of job they do raising a calf. The only problem is you end up with is a herd that looks like a box of crayons.

 

[Caustic Burno]

The commercial cattleman that make their living with cattle retain their best heifer calves for replacements, I think I will also. I like to buy thin bred young cows, calve them out and see what kind of job they do raising a calf. The only problem is you end up with is a herd that looks like a box of crayons.

You loose your hybrid vigor if your not making your own f-1's and keep dipping back in the same gene pool. Pretty soon your pool has no deep end. As hybrid goes so do the pounds to mash the scales and IQ.

 

[True Grit Farms]

The commercial cattleman that make their living with cattle retain their best heifer calves for replacements, I think I will also. I like to buy thin bred young cows, calve them out and see what kind of job they do raising a calf. The only problem is you end up with is a herd that looks like a box of crayons.

You loose your hybrid vigor if your not making your own f-1's and keep dipping back in the same gene pool. Pretty soon your pool has no deep end. As hybrid goes so do the pounds to mash the scales and IQ.

How do you dip into the same gene pool when you use different bulls?

 

[Caustic Burno]

The commercial cattleman that make their living with cattle retain their best heifer calves for replacements, I think I will also. I like to buy thin bred young cows, calve them out and see what kind of job they do raising a calf. The only problem is you end up with is a herd that looks like a box of crayons.

You loose your hybrid vigor if your not making your own f-1's and keep dipping back in the same gene pool. Pretty soon your pool has no deep end. As hybrid goes so do the pounds to mash the scales and IQ.

How do you dip into the same gene pool when you use different bulls?

The vast majority are not changing bulls out every couple of years. I knew you would throw that out when I posted. A large number run the same POS bull until he is completely wore out.