Charolais angus x cross bull for breeding

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customcattle

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So I have a topic that some of you may be able to shed some light on. I manage a small place in west central Nebraska with an absentee owner situation. With cattle prices the way they are the owner is wanting to buy a bull that was sired by a Charolais bull, and came out of a angus cross cow, mainly because he can get him at weigh up prices. We know the type of cows this bull came out of as we sold the cows when they were bred. I have never heard of anybody using this type of bull, and my gut is telling me that its not a good idea. He keeps telling me that the calves weaned out good, and he liked the calves we had that were just like this bull two years ago. I however know that they were some 75-85 pound calves when they hit the ground and while we had no problems calving them, we also have some smaller framed, harder doing cows now. I am just wanting more thoughts on the subject. Like I stated, I am not a fan of the idea, mainly because I don't know of anybody who is doing this, but just can't articulate the reasons.
Any input is very much appreciated.
 
I don't pretend to be an authority on the subject, but it's my understanding that you aren't likely to get much consistency in your calves from a cross-bred bull. Some may be very good, some average, and some not so good. I used a cross-bred bull for two years and that's what I saw.
 
I'd say it depends on the genetics from both sides. I know a guy who made a few char/angus bulls to run on angus cows to get that 1/4 continental calf crop and he was really happy with the results but we used top notch stuff to make the cross. Without knowing anything except that there's some char and some angus in there I wouldn't touch it.
There's a really good chance that spending more on a purebred bull would give him a much better return on the investment.
 
I would advise people, not to use a crossbred bull. Calf crop has the possibility to be all over the board. If your seeking uniformity, and even some degree of predictability, it's probably a bad choice. Years ago, when I was in my late teens, and early 20's, I used a crossbred bull. I knew better at the time, but it was the best I could do. I actually got a lot of really good calves out of him. He was 3/4 charlois, and 1/4 hereford. If he was still around today, I'd still be using him. He was probably an exception to the rule though.
 
I have tried for the last three months to tell the owner that I don't think we want to do that, but he's on his way with him so I can go get him semen tested.
 
I am still pleading my case, but I feel like it is falling on deaf ears. I guess whatever the case maybe I will still be getting my paycheck, but just can't stand the thought of not raising good, solid calves.
 
customcattle":3tmd94j4 said:
I am still pleading my case, but I feel like it is falling on deaf ears. I guess whatever the case maybe I will still be getting my paycheck, but just can't stand the thought of not raising good, solid calves.

It sounds like you might as well just make the best of it. As a wise man once told me "The boss might not always be right, but he's always the boss."
 
Its not end of the world and I don't think it will hurt your paycheck that much. Sure they won't be uniformed but at least you'll have some good calves to sell. What kind of cows you and your owner have?
 
customcattle":1gx6smmb said:
...... I however know that they were some 75-85 pound calves when they hit the ground and while we had no problems calving them, we also have some smaller framed, harder doing cows now.....
I would be willing to bet that these are estimates and not actual weights. A 75 pound calf is a tiny little thing, and 85 is not big. I hear many people claim their calves are in that 70 to 80 pound range, with 75 being most commonly reported. I believe that is because their neighbors also estimate calf weights, and they think: "Mine was about that same size.... it must be 75 pounds." I would bet good money that if I actually weighed all of those 75 pound calves people claim to have on a scale, they would be mostly 80 to 90 pounds. Somewhere people have gotten the idea they need 55-65 pound calves. When they actually see one, they think it weighs much less. Those little things look unhealthy to me, and many don't make it.

My point is, if that bull has calves no larger than 75 to 85 pounds, and they are shaped correctly, then you should have nothing to worry about unless your cows are some sort of miniature breed. A normal size adult cow that can't easily have a 90 to 100+ pound calf needs to go. Same for those that are hard-doing. My herd for example is Angus. They are fairly small in frame score, but most weigh 1300 pounds plus. Their diet consists of native grasses and in winter, hay. I cull any that are hard-doing on that diet. I don't believe in giving cows grain. It is too expensive in this area. Many of these cows regularly give birth to calves over 100 pounds, and with about 50 births per year, I have not had to assist one in years. The biggest this year was 119 pounds. It takes two of us to lift many of them with the hanging scale, but we do it in order to get accurate weights for our AAA records. Whenever I see a sale catalog where all of the calves are under 90 pounds, I don't believe it.
 
I wouldn't touch a crossbred bull if you have a herd of mixed breed cows

Everyone is saying that they wouldn't use a crossbred bull. What do you call a SimAngus, Balancer, LimFlex, Maintainer, or even a Brangus?

I know that some of these may be a breed, but aren't they crossbreds?
 
cbcr":1iqfii94 said:
I wouldn't touch a crossbred bull if you have a herd of mixed breed cows

Everyone is saying that they wouldn't use a crossbred bull. What do you call a SimAngus, Balancer, LimFlex, Maintainer, or even a Brangus?

I know that some of these may be a breed, but aren't they crossbreds?

A stabilized cross, but I get what your saying.
 
cbcr":23npbznz said:
I wouldn't touch a crossbred bull if you have a herd of mixed breed cows

Everyone is saying that they wouldn't use a crossbred bull. What do you call a SimAngus, Balancer, LimFlex, Maintainer, or even a Brangus?

I know that some of these may be a breed, but aren't they crossbreds?

Brangus have been around long enough to qualify as a distinct breed. I don't know enough about the others to have an opinion.
 
Had anybody ever used a cross bred Charolais bull? A concern I have is the calving end of things. We will obviously keep him away from heifers, but even on the older cows it concerns me because the wife and I are both gone at other jobs all day and are tagging and taking care of cattle at night. We have had good luck so far and just want to keep it that way.
 
customcattle":23phob7y said:
So I have a topic that some of you may be able to shed some light on. I manage a small place in west central Nebraska with an absentee owner situation. With cattle prices the way they are the owner is wanting to buy a bull that was sired by a Charolais bull, and came out of a angus cross cow, mainly because he can get him at weigh up prices. We know the type of cows this bull came out of as we sold the cows when they were bred. I have never heard of anybody using this type of bull, and my gut is telling me that its not a good idea. He keeps telling me that the calves weaned out good, and he liked the calves we had that were just like this bull two years ago. I however know that they were some 75-85 pound calves when they hit the ground and while we had no problems calving them, we also have some smaller framed, harder doing cows now. I am just wanting more thoughts on the subject. Like I stated, I am not a fan of the idea, mainly because I don't know of anybody who is doing this, but just can't articulate the reasons.
Any input is very much appreciated.

I think it is bat shyt crazy a bad bull is a disaster and you have no idea what is coming out of that woodpile.
Hybred vigor starts in the womb not when they hit the ground.
There is no way in heII that idea would have ever crossed my mind to put a chance on my cows.
There is enough problems with a cow with out looking for one.
Sounds like trying to save a dime that is going to cost me a dollar.
That is not a composite bull that has been standardized it is a F-1
 
Brangus have been around long enough to qualify as a distinct breed.

While Brangus is a breed, they are a composite, 5/8 Angus 3/8 Brahman. But you can still breed a new Brangus by breeding a 1/2 blood animal to a 3/4 blood animal. The resulting offspring would be the 5/8 x 3/8. But it would not be "stabilized"!

Simangus Blancer and a limflex are not stabilized.

For a Composite to be stabilized, whether they are 50/50 or 5/8 x 3/8 they need to be bred for a few generations. When breeding up to "purebred status" an animal is considered purebred when they are 7/8 or 87.5% of the breed, which is the 3rd cross. Shouldn't a stabilized Composite or Crossbred also need to have at least 3 generations to be considered a "Purebred Composite"?

But look at the sale catalogs with SimAngus, Balancer, LimFlex or MaineTainer and how many bulls are offered for sale that are the first 50/50 cross or even the 2nd cross. Their are plenty of producers using those bulls.

Many older beef producers are under the assumption that you can only use a purebred bull to breed with.

Composite breeding strategies have been researched and developed at the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) Meat Animal Research Centre (MARC) in Nebraska. MARC research has shown that populations of composite cows provide an efficient alternative to more complex systems of cross breeding while retaining high levels of hybrid-vigor. Their results have shown that composite breeding offers a solution that is more effective than the traditional rotational cross-breeding systems for utilizing genetic differences between breeds to achieve and maintain optimum performance levels for economic traits on a continuing basis.

Research done a couple decades ago by the U.S. Meat Animal Research Center (MARC) on composites clarified that they do have a role in the beef industry, and that they breed true. Phenotypic variation within composite populations was no different than phenotypic variation in the parent breeds. Three or four decades ago, there was a stigma among cattle producers that composites would have greater variation (less uniformity), but the MARC research did not bear this out.

Utilizing Composite or crossbred bulls is often more beneficial to the cow-calf producer than a terminal cross (breeding crossbred cows to a bull of a third breed that produces heavily muscled beef calves for market). The latter program creates super beef calves for market, but no replacement heifers. You have to buy your heifers; thus the genetic fate of your whole operation is in someone else's hands. Many producers prefer to retain some of their best heifers as cows, and by utilizing Composite blends enable them to do this.
 
There's a huge difference between a composite bull and a mongrel bull, cbcr. The Char x Angus bull's dam side concerns me as we have no idea what is her breed makeup.
 
customcattle":1vkp39sl said:
Had anybody ever used a cross bred Charolais bull? A concern I have is the calving end of things. We will obviously keep him away from heifers, but even on the older cows it concerns me because the wife and I are both gone at other jobs all day and are tagging and taking care of cattle at night. We have had good luck so far and just want to keep it that way.
I would pass on this bull, if you're so concerned about the calving ease. There's plenty of good bulls out with better calving ease.
 
Thank you for all the replies and input on the subject. I do realize the benefits of composite bulls and we currently are running a balancer bull as a cleanup bull and I am very impressed with his calves, so impressed my wife and I wound up keeping a heifer out of an angus cow for a replacement. As somebody previously mentioned a mongrel bull is a different story. I get the cross bred cows performing with or out performing pure bred stock by getting "the best of both worlds" but at some point crossing too many times is looking to get the worst of both worlds or in this case all 5 worlds. In the position I'm in I would have to agree that it's time to just suck it up and make it work if that's what the boss wants even if I don't agree with it. It is somewhat frustrating though.
Again, thank you for the input and look forward to seeing more opinions on the matter.
 

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