Bull Sale: Quality

[CreekAngus]

Yesterday, here locally, the sale barn put on a consignment bull sale, 28 bulls were entered, almost all Angus, 1 Hereford, 1 Charolais, 2 Red Angus. Only four bulls were quality, 2 Angus the Charolais and a Red. $2,750 was the top, but that same consignor also had the bottom at $1,400. There were bulls there that weaned off under 600 lbs and for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would want to put in the expense to raise a total turd of a bull. They would run a yearling bull across the scale and post 900 lb weights and my daughter would yell out,"my show heifer weighed 810 lbs at weaning!" I know we give a lot of grief to one another about our operations and how we do things, especially Branded. But I can respect Branded, he's attempting to make great cattle, I can't respect idiots raising steer prospects into bulls.

 

[elkwc]

I went to a local all breed bull sale. Likewise mainly Angus. Around 40 bulls total. 6 Herefords, 7 Simmi and Simmi Angus. The top was 3,900. 2 y/o plus bulls sold better even if they were lesser quality. Like the other sales I've seen yearlings went begging. The top bulls were from the singke Hereford breeder and one Angus. There were some of less quality but some good bulls sold cheap also. It was evident docility is a strong consideration with many. If a bull showed any sign of beig a little hot he didn't sell well regardless of quality. As a lady sitting by me said. We won't gave a ything high strung

 

[CattleMan1920]

Yesterday, here locally, the sale barn put on a consignment bull sale, 28 bulls were entered, almost all Angus, 1 Hereford, 1 Charolais, 2 Red Angus. Only four bulls were quality, 2 Angus the Charolais and a Red. $2,750 was the top, but that same consignor also had the bottom at $1,400. There were bulls there that weaned off under 600 lbs and for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would want to put in the expense to raise a total turd of a bull. They would run a yearling bull across the scale and post 900 lb weights and my daughter would yell out,"my show heifer weighed 810 lbs at weaning!" I know we give a lot of grief to one another about our operations and how we do things, especially Branded. But I can respect Branded, he's attempting to make great cattle, I can't respect idiots raising steer prospects into bulls.

I TRULY appreciate what you said above, thank you.

 

[Luckiamute]

Yesterday, here locally, the sale barn put on a consignment bull sale, 28 bulls were entered, almost all Angus, 1 Hereford, 1 Charolais, 2 Red Angus. Only four bulls were quality, 2 Angus the Charolais and a Red. $2,750 was the top, but that same consignor also had the bottom at $1,400. There were bulls there that weaned off under 600 lbs and for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would want to put in the expense to raise a total turd of a bull. They would run a yearling bull across the scale and post 900 lb weights and my daughter would yell out,"my show heifer weighed 810 lbs at weaning!" I know we give a lot of grief to one another about our operations and how we do things, especially Branded. But I can respect Branded, he's attempting to make great cattle, I can't respect idiots raising steer prospects into bulls.

Based on your location, I'm assuming you're referencing the bull sale at Chehalis Livestock Auction Market. I saw this advertised in the paper and have always wondered what type of quality the bulls were. Are they all registered or just purebred? Who's consigning them? Are these breeders known in the area or just the small "backyard breeders" or the "hobby farmers"? I think too many breeders -- big and small -- keep too many bull calves as bulls and don't castrate as many as they should. Just because it might have good bloodlines doesn't mean it should be kept a bull. Too many people are lazy and won't cull heavy enough. And then there's the folks who buy these poor-quality yearlings and are just happy if they breed their cows and produce a live calf every year without consideration to the quality of the offspring. Totally agree with your statement "I can't respect idiots raising steer prospects into bulls."

 

[Dave]

Yesterday, here locally, the sale barn put on a consignment bull sale, 28 bulls were entered, almost all Angus, 1 Hereford, 1 Charolais, 2 Red Angus. Only four bulls were quality, 2 Angus the Charolais and a Red. $2,750 was the top, but that same consignor also had the bottom at $1,400. There were bulls there that weaned off under 600 lbs and for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would want to put in the expense to raise a total turd of a bull. They would run a yearling bull across the scale and post 900 lb weights and my daughter would yell out,"my show heifer weighed 810 lbs at weaning!" I know we give a lot of grief to one another about our operations and how we do things, especially Branded. But I can respect Branded, he's attempting to make great cattle, I can't respect idiots raising steer prospects into bulls.

I sat through that sale a number of times. I only raised my hand one time (and bought the bull). A guy from south of Tumwater brought in a pen of 5 Image Maker sons. They were selling them choice. They had sold 2 already and left what I thought was the best bull in the ring. I got him with one bid for half what number one sold for. But over the years I saw fairly little reason to bid on bulls at that sale. For years I bought my bulls from a guy down on the Willapa south of South Bend. I think Creek will know who I am mentioning.

 

[jscunn]

Nice post Creek, I agree with what you said. For me personally they have to meet all the requirements (pedigree, performance, EPDs, phenotype). That said I dont care if they are great in 3, they have to meet all the requirements. 600 lb WW for bull calves dont meet the minimium.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Nice post Creek, I agree with what you said. For me personally they have to meet all the requirements (pedigree, performance, EPDs, phenotype). That said I dont care if they are great in 3, they have to meet all the requirements. 600 lb WW for bull calves dont meet the minimium.

They sure do in Kentucky, heck 500 pound weaning weights cut the mustard here! Why do you think I have made so many people upset?

I like big cattle, I won't deny that. A powerful bull gets the job done. I sold three this past week out of our Big Wayne bull to a guy in Northern Kentucky, from what I've been told so far, no complaints whatsoever, they were turnkey, needed nothing, he put them to work and they started doing what they were intended for ASAP.

 

[uplandnut]

The only thing I question is weaning weights is can weight numbers be skewed drastically when 1 guy uses creep feed and another does nothing but pasture till weaning? I agree with what was said about anything under 600 not meeting the minimum. I just got 2 sale catalogs in the mail for 2 bull sales coming up in my area and they actually have very little selection that are over 600, and only a handful that are over 700. I was looking forward to going to at least one sale but debating if its worth even going when I see the weights.

 

[Aaron]

Unless your level of management matches those conditions under which that 800 lb WW was achieved, it is unlikely to be repeated in your operation.

My best bulls have been those raised under range, or my own, conditions; not in front of a creep feeder. My best calves the last number of years have come off a bull with a 555 lb WW. They surpass those of another bull who had an 820 lb WW.

 

[Ebenezer]

EXT: weaning weight 550 pounds
Lot 1 of Sinclair 2019 sale - top seller at $12,500: weaning weight 508 pounds

 

[CattleMan1920]

Unless your level of management matches those conditions under which that 800 lb WW was achieved, it is unlikely to be repeated in your operation.

My best bulls have been those raised under range, or my own, conditions; not in front of a creep feeder. My best calves the last number of years have come off a bull with a 555 lb WW. They surpass those of another bull who had an 820 lb WW.

I understand that the overall objective in most operations is to drive down input costs to the very minimum, nothing wrong with that, but a bull needs nutrition to develop, just like a human. I'm not talking corn gluten and cottonseed hulls till they explode, I'm talking really good hay, or pasture, and supplementation, in my case a 14% protein formula with lots of good stuff mixed in. Our bulls don't finish fat, they finish fit, but they are not starved either. Athletes cannot perform without top nutrition, neither can bulls.

You either have a bull that goes through a group of females like a hot knife through butter, or you have Ferdinand the bull
[image]267[/image]

I prefer, and produce the hot knife.

 

[fhug]

I think too many breeders -- big and small -- keep too many bull calves as bulls and don't castrate as many as they should. Just because it might have good bloodlines doesn't mean it should be kept a bull. Too many people are lazy and won't cull heavy enough. And then there's the folks who buy these poor-quality yearlings and are just happy if they breed their cows and produce a live calf every year without consideration to the quality of the offspring. Totally agree with your statement "I can't respect idiots raising steer prospects into bulls."

I am seeing this way too often the past few years. People keeping every bull calf to sell as a bull. Then sell steers with nuts as breeding stock for less money than you can get for a fat steer. If you are selling a bull that you wouldn't use on your own commercial cows, he should have been steered.

We get $2000-2200 for freezer beef. Why go thru the hassle and cost of correctly raising a bull if you are going to sell them for less than that?

 

[Aaron]

Unless your level of management matches those conditions under which that 800 lb WW was achieved, it is unlikely to be repeated in your operation.

My best bulls have been those raised under range, or my own, conditions; not in front of a creep feeder. My best calves the last number of years have come off a bull with a 555 lb WW. They surpass those of another bull who had an 820 lb WW.

I understand that the overall objective in most operations is to drive down input costs to the very minimum, nothing wrong with that, but a bull needs nutrition to develop, just like a human. I'm not talking corn gluten and cottonseed hulls till they explode, I'm talking really good hay, or pasture, and supplementation, in my case a 14% protein formula with lots of good stuff mixed in. Our bulls don't finish fat, they finish fit, but they are not starved either. Athletes cannot perform without top nutrition, neither can bulls.

You either have a bull that goes through a group of females like a hot knife through butter, or you have Ferdinand the bull
[image]267[/image]

I prefer, and produce the hot knife.

The question wasn't so much nutrition, as to do with expectations. No extra value to an 800 lb WW to me if it wasn't based on milk and grass alone, because that is all the future offspring will get here until weaning. Post weaning gain only matters to those potential buyers who retain their calves past weaning.

Now if the 600 WW bull had his head stuck in the creep feeder since birth, than he has no value to anyone. Too low a WW for high input producers and too unpredictable/unreliable for low input producers.

 

[u4411clb]

Epd's keep going higher and yet actual weaning weights across all breeds for all calves have not changed one bit in 20+ years. You can pay extra for those high weaning weight EPDs bulls but you can pretty much guarantee your weaning weights won't change that much.

There is only so many pounds your environment is going to give you without inputs. In my area it's about 600+\- lbs for a steer and 550+\- lbs for heifers on average. And I don't need a 5000 or 10000 dollar bull to get that.

 

[CreekAngus]

Yesterday, here locally, the sale barn put on a consignment bull sale, 28 bulls were entered, almost all Angus, 1 Hereford, 1 Charolais, 2 Red Angus. Only four bulls were quality, 2 Angus the Charolais and a Red. $2,750 was the top, but that same consignor also had the bottom at $1,400. There were bulls there that weaned off under 600 lbs and for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would want to put in the expense to raise a total turd of a bull. They would run a yearling bull across the scale and post 900 lb weights and my daughter would yell out,"my show heifer weighed 810 lbs at weaning!" I know we give a lot of grief to one another about our operations and how we do things, especially Branded. But I can respect Branded, he's attempting to make great cattle, I can't respect idiots raising steer prospects into bulls.

Based on your location, I'm assuming you're referencing the bull sale at Chehalis Livestock Auction Market. I saw this advertised in the paper and have always wondered what type of quality the bulls were. Are they all registered or just purebred? Who's consigning them? Are these breeders known in the area or just the small "backyard breeders" or the "hobby farmers"? I think too many breeders -- big and small -- keep too many bull calves as bulls and don't castrate as many as they should. Just because it might have good bloodlines doesn't mean it should be kept a bull. Too many people are lazy and won't cull heavy enough. And then there's the folks who buy these poor-quality yearlings and are just happy if they breed their cows and produce a live calf every year without consideration to the quality of the offspring. Totally agree with your statement "I can't respect idiots raising steer prospects into bulls."

Yes it that was sale and my sense was folks bring in registered Angus they couldn't sell private treaty, those were the consigners not local. The local consigners were a mix of the clueless (no epd's) and a few decent herds that need to cull with a better eye or discretion.

 

[CreekAngus]

Yesterday, here locally, the sale barn put on a consignment bull sale, 28 bulls were entered, almost all Angus, 1 Hereford, 1 Charolais, 2 Red Angus. Only four bulls were quality, 2 Angus the Charolais and a Red. $2,750 was the top, but that same consignor also had the bottom at $1,400. There were bulls there that weaned off under 600 lbs and for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would want to put in the expense to raise a total turd of a bull. They would run a yearling bull across the scale and post 900 lb weights and my daughter would yell out,"my show heifer weighed 810 lbs at weaning!" I know we give a lot of grief to one another about our operations and how we do things, especially Branded. But I can respect Branded, he's attempting to make great cattle, I can't respect idiots raising steer prospects into bulls.

Are you basing your poor quality judgement on weight alone, or were there other contributing factors to it?

Lack of capacity, short flanked, no width, the hind quarters of a Holstein.

 

[CreekAngus]

Weight does matter, those of us raising seed stock are showcasing performance. How we choose to develop that performance differs. I do creep feed, but not free choice, but I don't have any issue with someone who does fill up the creep feeder and let them have at it. My boys have got to show the ability to grow, hoping those genes get passed to their progeny. If pounds don't matter then why is "Midland" so dang popular? Pounds matter to the commercial guy, the buyer at the sale barn, the guy retaining ownership all the way to the rail, the feed lot and the packing plant.

 

[Ebenezer]

Weight does matter, those of us raising seed stock are showcasing performance. How we choose to develop that performance differs. I do creep feed, but not free choice, but I don't have any issue with someone who does fill up the creep feeder and let them have at it. My boys have got to show the ability to grow, hoping those genes get passed to their progeny. If pounds don't matter then why is "Midland" so dang popular? Pounds matter to the commercial guy, the buyer at the sale barn, the guy retaining ownership all the way to the rail, the feed lot and the packing plant.

Where do you deal with brood cow efficiency? Do you want 2000 pound brood cows? The AAA is trying to fix the long term chase for terminal traits right now. They have publicly admitted their short sightedness. Any efficiency plan of a cow calf producer is started with minimizing feed costs as the #1 cost of anybody who tries to raise cattle or most livestock. The people who will net the most will have the most relative size brood cow for their environment, on the average, and the most fertile females. Convenience traits make it easier as extra considerations and decrease labor such as proper feet and hooves, adequate udders and teats, mothering ability and such. You, as an individual, can add in other things that you like or need in your environment such as longevity, calf vigor, color and such. But the cow herd's efficiency is every one's business foundation and then you can choose to use a terminal bull(s) to get bigger sale animals or not.

Midlands is popular when so many performance tests across the US have ceased. I do not know the real answer but it is a place to find a bull that has not been pampered at "home", has a lack of true contemporaries (from the same source of birth and management until taken to Midlands) but the individuals are proven on feet and legs in lots, health, vigor, carcass and growth. Would you call these traits maternal or terminal?

 

[True Grit Farms]

The most important thing to me is how an animal grows on MY hay and pasture. Any clown using AI or ET can breed a big cow to a big bull and pour the feed to them and get big calves. It's not rocket science. I'd be embarrassed to try and sell a skinny or small frame animal private treaty, around here we cull them.

 

[elkwc]

There are a lot of factors in this area that have an influence on weaning weights. Fall born calves will be lighter. Also if they were creep fed, pasture(dead grass or wheat) the cows are eating and severity of winter. I consider all factors before I cull a calve on weaning weight. And use only a tual weights eith a straight adj