Bull breeders: question

[Anonymous]

For those that sell bulls, and for those that buy bulls I have a question.
What good does it do to feed a bull to a finished condition that while it looks good isn't an accurate representation of the bull? Most bulls don't get fed year round, and i would think most buyers would want to see the condition in real world circumstances.
What's the benefit of a bull test and pictures marketing a bull on feed?
I don't get it. It's like washing a quad and shining the tires for a sale when the dang things going to be muddy all the time

 

[cow pollinater]

Alot of customers look at individual performance because they don't understand epd's. It's reaaly easy to pick out the "best" bull based on individual weights.
Last year we had a guy sell about fifteen head of really good angus bulls in Visalia that were straight off dry feed and ready to work. They sold right along side the fat bulls. He probably came out on it once you factor in his feed costs but he got killed on price as the hobbyists wouldn't touch them... They would have been my choice if I were looking for angus that day.
In my opinion, both parties get screwed, the seller has a ton of money in feed and the buyer get's a bull that's not fit to go breed cows.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not even talking epd's.
bull1 has been on grass mineral and hay only. His calves ww is good, yw is good, fertility, it's all good. He looks like a working man maybe not filled out in all the right places but His muscular structure is sound and good.
Bull2 matches all of bull1, but has been on heavy feed to get the same results. He looks maybe a hair better as far as fill. But as a customer I don't know he will do real world

Why not do all bull test on real world expectations.
This is the part I don't get

 

[cow pollinater]

Most of the calves will go on feed post weaning so they want to know what the performance will be on feed so they test the bull himself. Where they fail is keeping them on feed instead of backing them off and getting them ready to work.

 

[Anonymous]

Then why do buyers not insist on real world results? If I'm buying a truck for hauling a load I don't want to look at a Cadillac escalade. All fluffed up clean, but useless for any real work

 

[Workinonit Farm]

hook, its a psychological thing with many folks would be my guess. All fattened up the bull looks great, big, handsome, shiny,rounded and 'bullish'. A bull in his working condition isn't always as 'pretty'.

Katherine

 

[3waycross]

We feed em up some so that they will reach as much of their potential as possible. That doesn't mean pig fat but if you don't feed weanling bulls in this country over the winter you won't use them to breed the following spring. They just can't grow enough over the winter to do the job. They also will likely not pass the BSE either.

I have had a fall calf(born 8-1) wean off at 635lbs and weigh close to 1050 the following Oct by being on grass only for the summer and he looked real good and could have gone straight on cows at that point. But a spring calf coming off momma's milk to hay will not make the same gains in frame or muscle around this country.

You could do the same with spring calves and summer them over but who you gonna sell them to if they have to feed em for a winter before they can use them.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I will give you two lines you will hear from seedstock producers Hook. One is you have to feed them so they can reach the full genetic potential. The next one is fat sells, and fat sells just go to a few sales and see for yourself. Its not just hobby people that buy fat bulls.

 

[Bigfoot]

I'm no fan of a bucket raised bull myself. I feel like what I am buying has been there since birth. I have kept my own bulls from time to time. When there weaned, I just turn them out in my bull pen till service age. Many of the bulls I do buy are the ones that have gotten a wandering eye at someone else's house, and wouldn't stay in. Most people around here calve year round. A bull want stay in one place with no cows in heat. They all say the same thing when I buy him. I wish you could have seen him when I brought him home from the bull sale. I sure hate to sell him at market price.

 

[3waycross]

I just wrote a full page reply to this crap and i don't feel like writing it again.

You want good 2yr old bulls with no feed in them then buy weaned calves and feed em hay and grass for two years and turn em out. Of course you better buy 10 if you want 6 good ones. Then you get to take the risk the seedstock guy takes every year. There ain't no free lunch in the bull business. Somebody's gonna pay somewhere, and that's a fact!

Probelm is i can't do that and make any money...........ya'll can't have it both ways. If you want yearlings ready to breed at 14 months they need some time at the feedbunk.

I watched 7 or 8 coming 2yr old Limo bulls grassfed and developed slow on forage sell for the same or less than my 14 month olds who had been fed a reasonable ration in the pasture all winter. So why would i want to hold em for two years to make the same money?

One last thought. The beef industry in America is based on cattle fattened in a feedlot and killed. Why would anyone not want a bull who has proved he can gain well on a grow ration for a few months.

 

[bigbull338]

the main reason bulls are put in bull tests is to see if the breeders program is working.an to see if the bulls have the meat that the feedlots want on calves on feed.an to see their ribbeye scores.most bull buyers want a super fat bull when they buy them.but what they dont understand is that bull will fall apart unless they keep him in the feed trough.a grassfed bull isnt the prettiest thing in the world.but their calves tell the tale if the bull is fit.

 

[3waycross]

the main reason bulls are put in bull tests is to see if the breeders program is working.an to see if the bulls have the meat that the feedlots want on calves on feed.an to see their ribbeye scores.most bull buyers want a super fat bull when they buy them.but what they dont understand is that bull will fall apart unless they keep him in the feed trough.a grassfed bull isnt the prettiest thing in the world.but their calves tell the tale if the bull is fit.

horseshyt

a grassfed bull isnt the prettiest thing in the world.

you sure as he[[ proved that.

 

[circlew]

When I bought my Hereford a few years ago he was a grain feed bull. He was all slick and pretty. I needed him for May, as I was spring calving at the time, so I bought him in January and by May he was completely weaned off feed and hasn't yet fallen apart. He bred 30 cows from May 1 to June 15 and then again this year. My flw bought a half brother for mine the end of April that year and turn him straight out and he has never recover. His cows were bred tight now they are pretty much year round. He wonders what happen to his bull.

 

[houstoncutter]

Fat does sell, and breeds that have a lack of muscle need all the fat they can get to make those animals look good. There is a difference though in having a bull that is pasture ready or pasture poor. Your herd bull is the athlete in your pasture, and if your running a tight breeding season that bull may need a few pounds of cubes, cause he needs to be breeding , not trying to hustle up his next meal. I wont baby a cow, but a bull will get special treatment in my pasture. Of course, when he"s off those cows, the special treatment ends.

 

[Brute 23]

Ignorance.... People want stuff that looks good not necessarily whats practical. A guy I've been buying Brangus Bulls for like 10 or 12 years talks about this all the time. He sells hundreds of bulls a year and the stories he has about people coming to buy bulls are just rediculous.

 

[SRBeef]

...If you want yearlings ready to breed at 14 months they need some time at the feedbunk...

I respectfully disagree with this statement. I am no bull raising expert. However I have bought a few and raised a few for my own use.

A good April 1 bull calf can be ready to turn out with a few cows the following June 20th with just mama, summer and early fall grazing, winter hay and spring grass and good mineral up to turn out, at least in my S Wisc conditions. I give them on average maybe 2 lb of grain a week as a gentling treat to keep them coming to me when a bang on a white gal pail, but not enough for significant nutrition. So far my retained bulls have done just fine at 14-15 months and no significant grain.

I don't want a bull that has been fed grain because his calves and cows are going to have to live on what they can graze along with good winter hay. The registered bulls I buy I want to be raised with little grain also as that is the environment their offspring will have to perform in.

I took a picture of this year's retained bull calf a week or two ago. This calf has had no grain to speak of and i am sure will be ready to go next June like the one I just sold after 2 seasons of use. fwiw.

I see I did post this pic earlier here under as different thread but here it is again for ref. He was 170 days old at the time of the picture. I am using a mix of retained and purchased bulls in my sort of line breeding experiment.

Jim

 

[KNERSIE]

at least in my S Wisc conditions

That is exactly that, conditions vary so much that there just isn't a simple answer.

A good bit of advice for those willing to listen ... Don't buy the leanest bull in a fat bull sale thinking he is the one that won't fall apart....

 

[deenranch]

Take you grassfed bulls and put them in a pen with bulls that have been grown on a high roughage feed. See which ones sell first. People want to ba able to brag about the animal they just bought.

If you bought a new Cadillac, you would tell all your friends about it and show it off. If you bought a beat up Nova, you're gonna park it out back and not tell any of your friends.

 

[plumber_greg]

I wish someone would define "falling apart" for me. Are my bulls falling apart breeding 25-30 cows apeice, and losing 100 to as much as maybe 300lbs. during a 60 day calving season. They seem to maintain their weight when with the cows, I notice the weight loss when they have been home for a few weeks.
I feed them to get them ready to breed for a month before turnout, they don't necessarily need the feed, but most of my cows will breed on the first heat, so I ain't changing my ways. gs

 

[KNERSIE]

I wish someone would define "falling apart" for me. Are my bulls falling apart breeding 25-30 cows apeice, and losing 100 to as much as maybe 300lbs. during a 60 day calving season. They seem to maintain their weight when with the cows, I notice the weight loss when they have been home for a few weeks.
I feed them to get them ready to breed for a month before turnout, they don't necessarily need the feed, but most of my cows will breed on the first heat, so I ain't changing my ways. gs

I suppose everybody has their own definition, but to me it means losing condition to the point of muscle degeneration.