Bull breeders: question

[plumber_greg]

That I can understand. Should someone be worried that a yearling bull looses condition when turned out with the cows, or would it be expected? If expected, how much weight is expected? My older bulls, which my oldest is now 3, coming 4, seem to maintain better than the younger ones, maybe not lose any. gs

 

[Anonymous]

I can see where feeding a bull to bring them to an earlier age of production, or in cold conditions, or during breeding. Full time feeding does the buyers a disservice in my opinion

 

[dun]

I can see where feeding a bull to bring them to an earlier age of production, or in cold conditions, or during breeding. Full time feeding does the buyers a disservice in my opinion

Mine too, but what do I know?

 

[highgrit]

Your bull is half of your herd. And when he is working he's got one thing on his mind and its not eating. The reason breeders feed their bulls is because they want to be able to sell them. Every bull that I have bought so far has lost condition on my pastures for the first year. Once the bulls get use to living here, they do fine. Some of the pictures that I see on here of the pastures is the best kind of feed you can buy.

 

[novatech]

In my opinion the purchase of a bull, wither a bull is on a feed test or not should not be the determining factor on the purchase. If one is buying a bull for terminal use then it may be an issue as far as marketing the calves. If one is going to use the bull for replacement heifer breeding then I would think a pasture forage based program may be of use. Regardless one should have done enough homework to already know the genetic potential of the bull being considered. Unless the bull is being bought strictly for terminal use the background of the bull is the future of ones herd. I would question how the brothers and sisters of the bull do that are not on feed.
A statement is made on these boards often that I sometimes question. "The bull is in his working cloths." So why can't the bull stay in good condition on forage? In some cases this may tell me he is going to produce cattle that have a hard time on forage in the environment they will be placed in.

 

[greybeard]

Take you grassfed bulls and put them in a pen with bulls that have been grown on a high roughage feed. See which ones sell first. People want to ba able to brag about the animal they just bought.

If you bought a new Cadillac, you would tell all your friends about it and show it off. If you bought a beat up Nova, you're gonna park it out back and not tell any of your friends.

Maybe. Or too often, the Caddy will become a garage queen and it's sole purpose is to sit there inside or wheeled out in the driveway and look good while the Nova is the one that does the daily driving.
I'd rather brag about the calves the bull produced on MY pasture and in the real world conditions of my property and budget than brag about how the bull looked when he was in the sale pen or in the bull breeders prime and perfect pasture and HIS feeding regimen.
(yeah I know--part of that is MY responsibility, but still, the bull has to perform)

 

[3waycross]

...If you want yearlings ready to breed at 14 months they need some time at the feedbunk...

I respectfully disagree with this statement. I am no bull raising expert. However I have bought a few and raised a few for my own use.

You also are not raising bulls to sell. What do your bull calves weigh @ 14 months? Do you do a BSE on them before you turn them out?


A good April 1 bull calf can be ready to turn out with a few cows the following June 20th with just mama, summer and early fall grazing, winter hay and spring grass and good mineral up to turn out, at least in my S Wisc conditions. I give them on average maybe 2 lb of grain a week as a gentling treat to keep them coming to me when a bang on a white gal pail, but not enough for significant nutrition. So far my retained bulls have done just fine at 14-15 months and no significant grain.

Like Knersie said your conditions vary so much from mine that its not even close. We are almost 8000feet higher than you and have at least 60 days less growing season for grass. In this country we have good grass but here's the deal. If i have a April 1 calf he will get approx 5 months of milk and grass before it goes dormant. then he would be on straight grass hay for 7 more months. He would never see green grass before his 1st birthday and dam little by june 30th. (BTW we turn out the bulls on May 15th) not June 30th.

They don't necessarily have to fall apart on grass. Here is the red bull I sold to Nebraska last year @ about 14 months on test. He came off close to 1200lbs

and here he is in June. and btw the black calf in front of him topped 1000lbs at 14 months on nuthin but grass the same year. difference is he is a fall calf and got 5 months of green grass to eat so he didn't need the grain. Unfortunately we cannot fall calf here and come out on money! I don't believe that red bull fell apart. Of course he was let down the right way on the hot feed and had time for his rumen to adjust to a different diet before he was turned out. FWIW the red bull is a 3/4 GV balancer and the blk bull is purebred GV

 

[KNERSIE]

I agree with Novatech, the fact that they were fed at one stage, be it for a sale or a growth test doesn't make them any less an animal that can thrive on forage only, if you feed because they can't thrive on forage alone or their dams couldn't make it on forage alone or their sire looked like the bull that started this discussion on forage alone then I agree they'll likely also fall apart when they are expect do earn their keep on what is available.

Grass types do well on grain, but the opposite isn't always true, learn to identify the types that can fit into your conditions and you'll be money ahead. Buying cheap bulls that weren't developed to express themselves by sale time seldom will get you ahead in this game.

 

[Isomade]

Genetics play a much bigger role in a bull falling apart than a feed bunk. Just because a fat bull fell apart during your breeding season has little to do with "feed bunk" and everything to do with "genetics". Like Knersie said, you have to look at their type and parents genetic history. My bulls eat with the cows with the exception of 6 weeks prior to breeding season, if they don't make it, it's because I selected the wrong genetics/type. The feed bunk can be a valuable tool to get a young bull ready for the breeding season but gets far too much credit to their demise.

 

[KNERSIE]

Genetics play a much bigger role in a bull falling apart than a feed bunk. Just because a fat bull fell apart during your breeding season has little to do with "feed bunk" and everything to do with "genetics". Like Knersie said, you have to look at their type and parents genetic history. My bulls eat with the cows with the exception of 6 weeks prior to breeding season, if they don't make it, it's because I selected the wrong genetics/type. The feed bunk can be a valuable tool to get a young bull ready for the breeding season but gets far too much credit to their demise.

Well said!

Also time your breeding season to coincide with your best grazing season if at all possible, that way your calves can grow with the grass, your cows will be on a rising plane of condition and your conception rates higher and you're bull will have to spend less time looking for grass and more time checking the ladies.

 

[dun]

I agree with Novatech, the fact that they were fed at one stage, be it for a sale or a growth test doesn't make them any less an animal that can thrive on forage only, if you feed because they can't thrive on forage alone or their dams couldn't make it on forage alone or their sire looked like the bull that started this discussion on forage alone then I agree they'll likely also fall apart when they are expect do earn their keep on what is available.

Grass types do well on grain, but the opposite isn't always true, learn to identify the types that can fit into your conditions and you'll be money ahead. Buying cheap bulls that weren't developed to express themselves by sale time seldom will get you ahead in this game.

Part of the deal too is how they are conditioned during a switch from the grain/gowth/sell ration to strictly forage. A bull that has been on one of those types of diets that's turned out to straight forage is gonna lose weight, add in doing his job of getting girls settled and you have problems. It takes several weeks for the rumen flora to change to the type that utilizes forage from those that utilize grain.

 

[Anonymous]

I have a better understanding now. Thanks. I guess that's why they advertise some sales as "on forage" and if I don't see that them I can assume they are on feed.
This brings me to my next "understanding"
Some bull producers keep their bulls on feed all the time for a few reasons. One being so they look all filled out, 2 being to show the full potential of their calves in a feedlot, and 3 for speed
As i get further into this i fully understand buyin animals that fit my particular forage and clmate and Thrive in my conditions.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong at any point.

 

[SRBeef]

As pointed out by Knersie and others above, there are many reasons to buy a bull from a LOCAL breeder who raises bulls in the same type system that you will use them (grass/grain). some areas it may make sense to "feed em up" other areas that is really not necessary. A bull purchase is 50% of your herd future and important. Hard and long to correct a bull mistake or missed opportunity to change. jmho.

Jim

 

[cow pollinater]

Genetics play a much bigger role in a bull falling apart than a feed bunk. Just because a fat bull fell apart during your breeding season has little to do with "feed bunk" and everything to do with "genetics". Like Knersie said, you have to look at their type and parents genetic history. My bulls eat with the cows with the exception of 6 weeks prior to breeding season, if they don't make it, it's because I selected the wrong genetics/type. The feed bunk can be a valuable tool to get a young bull ready for the breeding season but gets far too much credit to their demise.

Overall I'd have to agree with you but for me the right genetics will fail if they're fat. I just flat cannot take a fed up bull that's been raised in easy country on soft feed up to a ranch with over a thousand foot of elevation rise and dry grass and expect him to breed cows... They last about two weeks and the rest of the season is just learning how to walk no matter what their genetics are. I'd much rather see one that's fit and ready to go to work.

 

[3waycross]

As pointed out by Knersie and others above, there are many reasons to buy a bull from a LOCAL breeder who raises bulls in the same type system that you will use them (grass/grain). some areas it may make sense to "feed em up" other areas that is really not necessary. A bull purchase is 50% of your herd future and important. Hard and long to correct a bull mistake or missed opportunity to change. jmho.

Jim

Define LOCAL

 

[Workinonit Farm]

there are many reasons to buy a bull from a LOCAL breeder who raises bulls in the same type system that you

Define LOCAL

I'm not SRBeef, but what I take from it, is a bull purchased from a breeder within 30 to 50 miles of where I am, especially one that was raised in a similar fashion to how I keep/manage my cows including the type of forage/range/pastures and grass types that I have.

Katherine

 

[3waycross]

As pointed out by Knersie and others above, there are many reasons to buy a bull from a LOCAL breeder who raises bulls in the same type system that you will use them (grass/grain). some areas it may make sense to "feed em up" other areas that is really not necessary. A bull purchase is 50% of your herd future and important. Hard and long to correct a bull mistake or missed opportunity to change. jmho.

Jim

Does that mean that all your nieghbors who "GRAZE" their cattle on standing corn should buy bulls from you. Since they are LOCAL and "FORAGE" based? Corn is corn in a trough or on the stalk! Respectfully!

Jim I am not really trying to pick on you but i can almost guarantee that if you take a calf who at 14 months has seen little or no grain and run him thru a bull sale with calves that have been on test you will get your a$$ kicked. Now if they are both two year olds it's a different story. But we are not talking about 2yr olds in this thread now are we?

The cattle industry in this country is a feedlot based system on a national scale. If you want to go against that then you become a Niche marketer and can do a lot of things differently. But for the avg cowman his calves are gonna drink milk, eat grass, get backgrounded and then get put in a feedlot. Why in the he[[ would this market not want bulls who have proven their ability to produce that kind of animal.

Now that doesn't mean as Cow Polinator said that you can take one out of that environment and expect him to go climb mountains. It ain't gonna happen. But like the way we feed ours out they have to travel from feed to hay to water all day every day. But they get fed, and that's a fact! That calf can go to work and climb mountains if he needs to!

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Fairly easy for folks who have never raised and sold bulls to tell folks how it should be done. Different story when you are doing it. You can't raise them to suit a few they got to suit a bunch of people.

 

[SRBeef]

As pointed out by Knersie and others above, there are many reasons to buy a bull from a LOCAL breeder who raises bulls in the same type system that you will use them (grass/grain). some areas it may make sense to "feed em up" other areas that is really not necessary. A bull purchase is 50% of your herd future and important. Hard and long to correct a bull mistake or missed opportunity to change. jmho.

Jim

Does that mean that all your nieghbors who "GRAZE" their cattle on standing corn should buy bulls from you. Since they are LOCAL and "FORAGE" based? Corn is corn in a trough or on the stalk! Respectfully!

Jim I am not really trying to pick on you but i can almost guarantee that if you take a calf who at 14 months has seen little or no grain and run him thru a bull sale with calves that have been on test you will get your a$$ kicked. Now if they are both two year olds it's a different story. But we are not talking about 2yr olds in this thread now are we?

The cattle industry in this country is a feedlot based system on a national scale. If you want to go against that then you become a Niche marketer and can do a lot of things differently. But for the avg cowman his calves are gonna drink milk, eat grass, get backgrounded and then get put in a feedlot. Why in the he[[ would this market not want bulls who have proven their ability to produce that kind of animal.

Now that doesn't mean as Cow Polinator said that you can take one out of that environment and expect him to go climb mountains. It ain't gonna happen. But like the way we feed ours out they have to travel from feed to hay to water all day every day. But they get fed, and that's a fact! That calf can go to work and climb mountains if he needs to!

I think we are saying the same thing. I agree with you that bulls should be raised the way their calves will be raised. Not being critical, just trying to point out exactly that.

I also understand that as a businessman you sell the customer what he wants to buy and is willing to pay for.

Jim

 

[3waycross]

Point taken and agreed upon. Thanks for not taking it personally!