Black and Red Chars.

[DOC HARRIS]

I like cows that not only eat green, but make lots of GREEN, the folding type

Speaking of GREEN - I have a question that I would appreciate being answered by ALL of the very knowledgeable Breeders and Producers on this Forum. There are experienced Purebred AND Crossbred Breeders who contribute to these posts, and I respect their thoughts and opinions very much.

Would you Ladies and Gentlemen please give me your unbiased opinion of what you consider the absolutely OPTIMUM collection of traits and characteristics you would accept for an animal to be approved and acknowledged as being close to PERFECT as a TERMINAL Sire?

Please include the MOST desirable EPD's, - describe the MOST desirable phenotype he should possess - and how his progeny should PERFORM and Grade as a finished product either on the rail, or in the meat case in the retail store. Please don't hold back, or hesitate to express your deep, heartfelt and honest opinion.

I have a DEFINITE purpose in asking your help with this subject, and I hope you will really just - let it ALL hang out! Tell me your honest to goodness true feelings.

Thank you very much!

DOC HARRIS

 

[jaydill]

In some instances, the change in color indicates that some other breed was crossbred in at some point in the calf's lineage. i.e. Chianinas which were once tall and white with black points have somehow become shorter and black with minimal amounts of Chi in them and more Maine and Angus. The change from white to black indicated the crossbreeding of Maine and Angus into them. I guess the point I'm trying to make, MikeC, is that it's not so much important as to the quality of the calf. More towards keeping the breed purebred or identifying a calf as purebred.

I have a hard time understanding why you would even care or why could it even be important.

If another breed was used 50 generations ago that changed the color, what difference does it make? There would be such a miniscule amount of those genes there it wouldn't make a hill of beans.

We should be more worried about what's "Under" the hide, instead of what the color is.

The "black" thing is a fad that will blow over as fast as it came.

You're right...I was just responding to your statement about the color, is all.

 

[la4angus]

The "black" thing is a fad that will blow over as fast as it came.

It may blow over as fast as it came but it sure is hanging around for quiet a while while waiting to blow over huh MikeC? :lol: :lol:

 

[BC]

The red factor has been accepted by AICA for a long time. It was discriminated against by some breeders who liked white only.

 

[CattleAnnie]

Doc, I'm only raising commercial cattle, and what I know about EPDs would fill a thimble, so although I do look at them when buying a new bull, my decisions tend to be based a little more on the phenotype of the animals I'm mulling over.

Having said that, if there was one deciding EPD for me would be Weaning Weight, due to the fact that my calves are sold when weaned, and my paycheque is based upon the weight (and quality) of the calves when they're standing on the scales in the auction ring.

As far as phenotype goes, I'd have to say that length is the foremost (more prime cuts), followed by thickness and then depth (given that the bull has proper legset, clean shoulders, good scrotal circumference and excellent feet).

Performance and grading? Well, we'd all like our stock to be efficient transformers of feed and grade Prime, but then I suppose that's to be expected. ;-)

Hope this helps with your survey. Like I said, I'm sure no expert.

(Couldn't resist adding this pic.)
Here's a dandy Red factor Char sired calf...gotta love pics like these.

Take care.

 

[Jovid]

Doc, I'm only raising commercial cattle, and what I know about EPDs would fill a thimble, so although I do look at them when buying a new bull, my decisions tend to be based a little more on the phenotype of the animals I'm mulling over.

Having said that, if there was one deciding EPD for me would be Weaning Weight, due to the fact that my calves are sold when weaned, and my paycheque is based upon the weight (and quality) of the calves when they're standing on the scales in the auction ring.

As far as phenotype goes, I'd have to say that length is the foremost (more prime cuts), followed by thickness and then depth (given that the bull has proper legset, clean shoulders, good scrotal circumference and excellent feet).

Performance and grading? Well, we'd all like our stock to be efficient transformers of feed and grade Prime, but then I suppose that's to be expected. ;-)

Hope this helps with your survey. Like I said, I'm sure no expert.

(Couldn't resist adding this pic.)
Here's a dandy Red factor Char sired calf...gotta love pics like these.

Take care.

How old is the calf?

 

[mtnman]

I saw a guy speak a while back that showed how much easier it was from crossbred calves from Exotic bulls and Angus cows to make CAB than it was for Angus to make CAB.

With that in mind, my guess is that most of the animals that qualify for CAb right now are mostly Exotic influenced.

Got news for the rest of you, too.

If your Charolais don't have horns, they are already crossbred, but guess what? It doesn't matter.

"Keep enough Angus influence to grade". What a joke, like being 1/32 Angus is going to matter. Heck, some of these Angus are 1/32 Chi or something else and they still don't have muscle like a Chi.

mtnman

 

[businessbreed]

Red and black factor charlois take away the one thing that charlois had, the were their own breed. This now puts them in with all other solid color cattle and no longer makes them unique. Regardless of the reason for the color i think it is a mistake. I hope there are some breeders out there that are strong enough to stick with their guns and preserve the integrity of their breed.

 

[dun]

Red and black factor charlois take away the one thing that charlois had, the were their own breed. This now puts them in with all other solid color cattle and no longer makes them unique. Regardless of the reason for the color i think it is a mistake. I hope there are some breeders out there that are strong enough to stick with their guns and preserve the integrity of their breed.

In days gone by most charolais were from Brown Swiss cows anyway. All that could be imported was semen and swiss cows made great mothers.

dun

 

[MikeC]

Next time I ship calves to the feeder I will be sure and tell him to instruct the packer to leave the hide on my cattle when they get processed.

That way the hide color will be left intact on the grocer shelves and my "Breed Integrity" will be honored. :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[MikeC]

Red and black factor charlois take away the one thing that charlois had, the were their own breed. This now puts them in with all other solid color cattle and no longer makes them unique. Regardless of the reason for the color i think it is a mistake. I hope there are some breeders out there that are strong enough to stick with their guns and preserve the integrity of their breed.

In days gone by most charolais were from Brown Swiss cows anyway. All that could be imported was semen and swiss cows made great mothers.

dun

Not so in the south. They were crossed with Brahma and to this day the AICA has a "Charbray" registry.

The first Chars were imported from Mexico into Texas before semen sales came about.

Snip:
The first Charolais came into the United States from Mexico in 1934. From that beginning, the breed grew rapidly. Wherever they were shown, the big white cattle commanded instant attention. Cattlemen admired both Charolais bulls and females for their muscling, correctness and size. They were also very impressed with their calves. An ever-expanding demand for purebred Charolais seedstock kept an active market for both bulls and females. Livestock producers across the country were searching for animals who would improve their profit picture.

In the late 1940s and early 1950s the breeders established the American Charbray Breeders Association and the American Charolais Breeders Association, both of which limited pedigrees to a blend of Charolais and Brahman breeding. Producers who were utilizing other beef breed cows to produce Charolais by compounding Charolais blood through successive generations, formed the International Charolais Association. In 1957, the American and International Associations merged into today's American-International Charolais Association (AICA). In 1964, the Pan-American Charolais Association, whose registrations were based on performance rather than genetic content, merged into the AICA. And three years later, the American Charbray Breeders Association merged with the AICA, bringing all Charolais-based breeds in the United States under the fold of a single breed registry.

 

[businessbreed]

last time i check there weren't to many types of beef that are advertised as Charolais in the grocery store. :roll: that white hide might put doubt in the mind of the consumer

 

[CattleAnnie]

Jovid,

I pulled that pretty pic off a red factor Char breeder's website so can't give you a birthdate on the calf. When I find the site I'll post a link here.
(The Charolais Banner's members links is very, very slow uploading in most instances, so this may take a while :roll: ).

My guess would be a Feb or early Mar calf (as that's when a lot of outfits start calving up here) in late Sept or early Oct judging by the leaves and grass.

In the meantime here's some links to pics of some dandy commercial Char x calves.

http://www.kch-charolais.com/commercial.htm

http://www.mts.net/%7Emerv1/commercial.htm

http://www.charolaisbanner.com/wilgenbu ... ercial.htm

Take care.

 

[Frankie]

last time i check there weren't to many types of beef that are advertised as Charolais in the grocery store. :roll: that white hide might put doubt in the mind of the consumer

Wasn't Safeway working with the Charolais Assn to produce branded beef for their stores?

 

[MikeC]

last time i check there weren't to many types of beef that are advertised as Charolais in the grocery store. :roll: that white hide might put doubt in the mind of the consumer

Wasn't Safeway working with the Charolais Assn to produce branded beef for their stores?

Swift handles the Charolais Gene Net beef. Little over 100,000 head went through in 2004.

 

[dun]

Red and black factor charlois take away the one thing that charlois had, the were their own breed. This now puts them in with all other solid color cattle and no longer makes them unique. Regardless of the reason for the color i think it is a mistake. I hope there are some breeders out there that are strong enough to stick with their guns and preserve the integrity of their breed.

In days gone by most charolais were from Brown Swiss cows anyway. All that could be imported was semen and swiss cows made great mothers.

dun

Not so in the south. They were crossed with Brahma and to this day the AICA has a "Charbray" registry.

The first Chars were imported from Mexico into Texas before semen sales came about.

Snip:
The first Charolais came into the United States from Mexico in 1934. From that beginning, the breed grew rapidly. Wherever they were shown, the big white cattle commanded instant attention. Cattlemen admired both Charolais bulls and females for their muscling, correctness and size. They were also very impressed with their calves. An ever-expanding demand for purebred Charolais seedstock kept an active market for both bulls and females. Livestock producers across the country were searching for animals who would improve their profit picture.

In the late 1940s and early 1950s the breeders established the American Charbray Breeders Association and the American Charolais Breeders Association, both of which limited pedigrees to a blend of Charolais and Brahman breeding. Producers who were utilizing other beef breed cows to produce Charolais by compounding Charolais blood through successive generations, formed the International Charolais Association. In 1957, the American and International Associations merged into today's American-International Charolais Association (AICA). In 1964, the Pan-American Charolais Association, whose registrations were based on performance rather than genetic content, merged into the AICA. And three years later, the American Charbray Breeders Association merged with the AICA, bringing all Charolais-based breeds in the United States under the fold of a single breed registry.

I think this is another one of those regional difference deals. The charolais farms I dealt with in southern and central CA all used Brown Swiss as there base breed in the late 60's early 70's. Maybe that's the reason I pulled so many charolais calves. But back then in that area the bigger is better syndrome was in affect also.

dun

 

[businessbreed]

sorry i forgot about those 100,000 head. just wondering if they require a white hide or not? if they do they might need to change that in a few years when these colored charolais become more popular.

 

[novaman]

sorry i forgot about those 100,000 head. just wondering if they require a white hide or not? if they do they might need to change that in a few years when these colored charolais become more popular.

If that was a serious commment I highly doubt there will be a shortage of white animals. I raise some white Char cattle and I'm sure there are quite a few out there that do the same.