$100,000.00 cow
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From New-bee's most recent response, it appears that he has a plan; and that is always good news. Just a couple more comments and I will let this go. First, making a big investment individually or as a part of a group for a great bull does make good sense in my experience, so long as you know what you are doing in selecting the right bull. A bull with unique carcass or high spread growth EPD's can make you some money in the West because either the purebred guys producing bulls for the commercial breeders, or the commercial producers who AI their own herds, are likely to buy semen from those types of bulls and that market can be pretty big. You do have to choose your partners carefully, plan to spend some marketing money, hope the bull stays healthy, hope the trends in that market don't change too fast, hope the numbers prove accurate once the first calves hit the ground, etc, but the risk is certainly manageable. By the same token, your plan to breed your cows to the right bulls for your market is a great plan, as AI is relatively cheap and you can make big changes in your herd pretty fast. However, just like any other EPD number, look at the accuracies; and remember that the dollar value beef numbers are based on the likely increase in the value of the finished cattle out of that sire compared to an average sire, but those prices are paid at the feedlot, so again the buyers of your EPD based cattle are largely the commercial bull buyer and those purebred breeders who produce bulls for that commercial market.
Actually, both of those situations are quite different from the original topic here, which was buying high end cows; and my advice on that topic is the same. Be careful. Just because there are lots of people out there paying high prices for cows does not change the fact that the market for those cows, and for their future embryos and calves, is a speculative market. The sales where the herds in the "club" do some money trading are not the majority of these transactions by any means, but as evident by your reaction they continue to give false comfort to the people who are paying the real money ( or considering paying those prices) that there will always be plenty of high end buyers for their cattle when they are ready to sell their calves out of those same bloodlines. That is the risk for a new herd trying to jump into that game, and I still urge anyone considering that move to look through the results from the production sales from the newer herds over the last few years. While these established high end sales have set record after record there are hundreds of purebred production sales out there that are lucky to average $2,000 a head; and many of them are selling bloodlines and EPD's that are no different than the big dollar sales. The cattle on Vermillion's sale are not much different than the bloodlines in Pat's son's herd in northern Montana, but the difference in the prices at their two sales this past year were pretty eye opening. Know your market, and use conservative estimates to calculate returns on most of your cattle, and you can likely justify taking some risk on a few. I dont' want to discourage anyone. I just want you to recognize that such an investment is a risk rather some guaranteed return. End of free lecture, and good luck.
Actually, both of those situations are quite different from the original topic here, which was buying high end cows; and my advice on that topic is the same. Be careful. Just because there are lots of people out there paying high prices for cows does not change the fact that the market for those cows, and for their future embryos and calves, is a speculative market. The sales where the herds in the "club" do some money trading are not the majority of these transactions by any means, but as evident by your reaction they continue to give false comfort to the people who are paying the real money ( or considering paying those prices) that there will always be plenty of high end buyers for their cattle when they are ready to sell their calves out of those same bloodlines. That is the risk for a new herd trying to jump into that game, and I still urge anyone considering that move to look through the results from the production sales from the newer herds over the last few years. While these established high end sales have set record after record there are hundreds of purebred production sales out there that are lucky to average $2,000 a head; and many of them are selling bloodlines and EPD's that are no different than the big dollar sales. The cattle on Vermillion's sale are not much different than the bloodlines in Pat's son's herd in northern Montana, but the difference in the prices at their two sales this past year were pretty eye opening. Know your market, and use conservative estimates to calculate returns on most of your cattle, and you can likely justify taking some risk on a few. I dont' want to discourage anyone. I just want you to recognize that such an investment is a risk rather some guaranteed return. End of free lecture, and good luck.
Thanks to all. Just got our first ultrasounds back today so have some study study to do. Will post later on our progress, probably after we try our first ET/Flush. Thanks again. By the way, the pictures of the cows are great. Sure hope some day to get one for myself, then I would have access to the best combination possible, a great cow and the best bulls in the country. 
vs_cattle
Well-known member
Wish My Cattle Sold For 100,000 + How Do You Get In The Place To Demand That Kind Of Money?
To vs-cattle - Great Question. "Wish my cattle sold for 100,000 + How do you get in the place to demand that kind of money?" (Of course, you can't demand but if your product is good enough others will come to your door).
Let me share what I have come to understand. In my prior response I cited the genetic jump by Bon View Spectrum 1171. That's how the super bulls and cows come into existence. Pull the pedigree for GAR Precision 2536 and you will see that she resulted from a genetic enhancenment. Normally, the offspring are the average of the parents, but occasionally the characteristics (IMF & REA) are additive, yielding a genetic jump. To see the jumps, you have to print the pedigree and then pull the parents and grandparents numbers and write them on the base pedigree - then you will see. Unfortunately, most of these special cows do not get sold so they are hard to identify and trace except for Gar Precision 2536, but the bulls do get sold and can be identified through the Angus Assoc. Sire Evaluation Data Base, so to truly understand, you have to study the bulls who have $B greater than 50. Just use the Sire Evaluation Search data base. If you take the time to look up each of their pedigrees (approx 88), and study their backgrounds you will observe that there are three dominant breeding lines and three or four minor lines which have produced these rare genetic enhancements. And even more rarely the pedigree examination will show two successive jumps (See TC Grid Topper). Once you understand these marvelous bulls, then what's happening will become more apparent.
For instance, since most animals are the result of these rare genetic enhancements, they are difficult to breed yourself - but by playing the odds, and breeding the lines which produce these jumps in the past, you may get lucky and produce your own - but to know you have succeeded, you must ultrasound so that you know the IMF & REA for your offspring.
Then the next question - Why do you want the $100,000 cow like 2536 whose beef number is $B=62+? Simply because without ownership of a "wonder cow" and using only the best bulls and getting only averages, you will take a number of generations to produce more super cows and bulls because each generation is only the average of the parents characteristics. So no matter how hard you try, you will have difficulty reaching the level of the "best bulls".
So examine what Wehrman's has done after their purchase of 2536. Go to the pedigree search and simply enter "Rito" or "Rita" and you will get the list of thousands of each, but by reading the names you will quickly find those bred by Wehrman to their $255,000 wonder cow because they used as an example, Rito 171 of 2356 Spectrum - including 2536 in each name of their offspring. It takes time, but you will see that they have created around 170 identifiable offspring from this $255,000 cow, and then if you google on these names, you can find much of their sales information including price and purchaser.
Her offspring bring premium numbers because in order to rapidly increase the quality of your herd, you need both the wonder bulls and the wonder cow. Then by AI/Flushing/ET breeding, you can create 10 or more offspring who are genetically superior without the time delay of trying to breed your own super cow. Simply putting super bulls on average cows is far less efficient than putting a super bull on a super $100,000 cow.
A simple case in point. Go to Hinkles sale book which was sent Angus members this last month. There-in you will see that they are selling their "wonder cow" 201 $B=51.82 a daughter of 2536. You may ask why. Well, when they bought her she was bred to Gar Predestined ($B=62), and they calved a heifer $B=56 who is now mature so they are able to replace 201 and breed even better and more superior offspring. In the meantime, they used 201 to ET many many superior offspring which were sold for premium value. And their operational model is exclusively AI & ET with no herd bulls at all. And not disclosed by the sale book, but learned from contact with them, is the fact that they have ET'd 201 to others including Predestined producing offspring not yet for sale. So they have reaped the benefit of this "almost wonder cow #201" and are now moving to recoup their initial cost while having many offspring better than 201 herself because they bred her to the best bulls - and now to increase the value of the sale they have bred 201 to Predestined and are now selling her as a bred cow. Not a bad strategy.
So the answer is, you need to breed or buy to get the "wonder cow" or "near wonder cow" in order to participate in the market being built around the enhanced genetics and market value of high $B cattle being sold to market. So you can breed and hope for the best as we must do because we can't afford to buy the wonder cow ourselves, or if you have money, you can buy a wonder cow (most likely an offspring of 2536) and follow the path used by Heinkle.
Our approach was to buy the best pedigrees we could find, (before we even understood what we were doing). Luckly, our four best heifers/cows matched the central blood lines which produce the genetic jumps - I'll take luck any time. Their $B values are 34, 37, 43 & 43+. Unfortunately, their IMF and REA are typically average - no superstars there, but their yearling weights were basically 1000# or more each which may further improve their beef numbers. But there are some amazing bulls in the $B=57 to 62 range which have eye popping IMF and REA values, which if used on these four animals should by the very force of averaging produce offspring into the $B = Upper 40's to Mid 50's range. And where these bulls have such amazing IMF & REA numbers, there is possibility that we can get some genetic enhancements because most enhancements seem to come from specific bull lines with high values being mated to average cows in very specific blood lines.
So this year, for example, we are using one heifer ($B=43) whose back ground includes 2536 to AI/ET (following Wehrman's logic) with a $B=60+ bull in order to get multiple offspring in the mid 50's range or higher setting the stage for possible semen sales or pushing the $B numbers into the near 60's in the next generation. And if you examine the top bulls, that's what you need not only for further herd improvement but to have a hope to make much from semen sales. And we have used the pedigrees we have found to contact a number of owners who have been willing to sell some of their semen from their superior buls which are not even on the semen market yet. Great people.
At any rate, we may not fully succeed, but we have a plan which takes advantage of the genetic avenues which have been created by others, and I think we appreciate the true value of the $100,000 wonder cow. But of course, if you have the money, you could bid on Hinkles 201 and then go from there.
And just this evening, we learned that our bred heifer we bought for $3,900 at the local auction this fall - which heifer is the one with 2536 in her background and was bred to 208, calved a nice 80# bull this afternoon. So in another year, after we ultrasound him, we will know better just how good our 2536 grandaughter is (she wasn't ultrasounded, and is too old now to get the data).
I hope that this information will help you. I admit that the path to knowledge takes time, but the Angus Data Bases are simply wonderful as tools to understand what's going on. And then google will help you understand the sales end of the problem. Good luck. New-bee :roll:
Let me share what I have come to understand. In my prior response I cited the genetic jump by Bon View Spectrum 1171. That's how the super bulls and cows come into existence. Pull the pedigree for GAR Precision 2536 and you will see that she resulted from a genetic enhancenment. Normally, the offspring are the average of the parents, but occasionally the characteristics (IMF & REA) are additive, yielding a genetic jump. To see the jumps, you have to print the pedigree and then pull the parents and grandparents numbers and write them on the base pedigree - then you will see. Unfortunately, most of these special cows do not get sold so they are hard to identify and trace except for Gar Precision 2536, but the bulls do get sold and can be identified through the Angus Assoc. Sire Evaluation Data Base, so to truly understand, you have to study the bulls who have $B greater than 50. Just use the Sire Evaluation Search data base. If you take the time to look up each of their pedigrees (approx 88), and study their backgrounds you will observe that there are three dominant breeding lines and three or four minor lines which have produced these rare genetic enhancements. And even more rarely the pedigree examination will show two successive jumps (See TC Grid Topper). Once you understand these marvelous bulls, then what's happening will become more apparent.
For instance, since most animals are the result of these rare genetic enhancements, they are difficult to breed yourself - but by playing the odds, and breeding the lines which produce these jumps in the past, you may get lucky and produce your own - but to know you have succeeded, you must ultrasound so that you know the IMF & REA for your offspring.
Then the next question - Why do you want the $100,000 cow like 2536 whose beef number is $B=62+? Simply because without ownership of a "wonder cow" and using only the best bulls and getting only averages, you will take a number of generations to produce more super cows and bulls because each generation is only the average of the parents characteristics. So no matter how hard you try, you will have difficulty reaching the level of the "best bulls".
So examine what Wehrman's has done after their purchase of 2536. Go to the pedigree search and simply enter "Rito" or "Rita" and you will get the list of thousands of each, but by reading the names you will quickly find those bred by Wehrman to their $255,000 wonder cow because they used as an example, Rito 171 of 2356 Spectrum - including 2536 in each name of their offspring. It takes time, but you will see that they have created around 170 identifiable offspring from this $255,000 cow, and then if you google on these names, you can find much of their sales information including price and purchaser.
Her offspring bring premium numbers because in order to rapidly increase the quality of your herd, you need both the wonder bulls and the wonder cow. Then by AI/Flushing/ET breeding, you can create 10 or more offspring who are genetically superior without the time delay of trying to breed your own super cow. Simply putting super bulls on average cows is far less efficient than putting a super bull on a super $100,000 cow.
A simple case in point. Go to Hinkles sale book which was sent Angus members this last month. There-in you will see that they are selling their "wonder cow" 201 $B=51.82 a daughter of 2536. You may ask why. Well, when they bought her she was bred to Gar Predestined ($B=62), and they calved a heifer $B=56 who is now mature so they are able to replace 201 and breed even better and more superior offspring. In the meantime, they used 201 to ET many many superior offspring which were sold for premium value. And their operational model is exclusively AI & ET with no herd bulls at all. And not disclosed by the sale book, but learned from contact with them, is the fact that they have ET'd 201 to others including Predestined producing offspring not yet for sale. So they have reaped the benefit of this "almost wonder cow #201" and are now moving to recoup their initial cost while having many offspring better than 201 herself because they bred her to the best bulls - and now to increase the value of the sale they have bred 201 to Predestined and are now selling her as a bred cow. Not a bad strategy.
So the answer is, you need to breed or buy to get the "wonder cow" or "near wonder cow" in order to participate in the market being built around the enhanced genetics and market value of high $B cattle being sold to market. So you can breed and hope for the best as we must do because we can't afford to buy the wonder cow ourselves, or if you have money, you can buy a wonder cow (most likely an offspring of 2536) and follow the path used by Heinkle.
Our approach was to buy the best pedigrees we could find, (before we even understood what we were doing). Luckly, our four best heifers/cows matched the central blood lines which produce the genetic jumps - I'll take luck any time. Their $B values are 34, 37, 43 & 43+. Unfortunately, their IMF and REA are typically average - no superstars there, but their yearling weights were basically 1000# or more each which may further improve their beef numbers. But there are some amazing bulls in the $B=57 to 62 range which have eye popping IMF and REA values, which if used on these four animals should by the very force of averaging produce offspring into the $B = Upper 40's to Mid 50's range. And where these bulls have such amazing IMF & REA numbers, there is possibility that we can get some genetic enhancements because most enhancements seem to come from specific bull lines with high values being mated to average cows in very specific blood lines.
So this year, for example, we are using one heifer ($B=43) whose back ground includes 2536 to AI/ET (following Wehrman's logic) with a $B=60+ bull in order to get multiple offspring in the mid 50's range or higher setting the stage for possible semen sales or pushing the $B numbers into the near 60's in the next generation. And if you examine the top bulls, that's what you need not only for further herd improvement but to have a hope to make much from semen sales. And we have used the pedigrees we have found to contact a number of owners who have been willing to sell some of their semen from their superior buls which are not even on the semen market yet. Great people.
At any rate, we may not fully succeed, but we have a plan which takes advantage of the genetic avenues which have been created by others, and I think we appreciate the true value of the $100,000 wonder cow. But of course, if you have the money, you could bid on Hinkles 201 and then go from there.
And just this evening, we learned that our bred heifer we bought for $3,900 at the local auction this fall - which heifer is the one with 2536 in her background and was bred to 208, calved a nice 80# bull this afternoon. So in another year, after we ultrasound him, we will know better just how good our 2536 grandaughter is (she wasn't ultrasounded, and is too old now to get the data).
I hope that this information will help you. I admit that the path to knowledge takes time, but the Angus Data Bases are simply wonderful as tools to understand what's going on. And then google will help you understand the sales end of the problem. Good luck. New-bee :roll:
To those other new-bees reading this:
Please understand that buying a $100,000 cow doesn't mean you will make $100,000 from her calves. You must have a market outlet for your cattle. Before you jump into the high dollar end of the Angus business, look at the sale venues available to you and see what cattle typically sell for there. If you're having your own production sale soon, ignore this post.
Understand that just because Express, Gardiners, etc., sell bulls for $10,000, you, again, are limited to markets available to you.
Don't chase numbers. Yes, breed for good EPDs. Never use a bull or buy a cow with less than breed average EPDs, at the least. Put a strong AI program into place.
Don't use unproven bulls. Some of those youngster's numbers will drop like a rock when the first two or three sire summaries come out.
Go to bull sales, Angus and others, too. Watch what bull buyers are willing to pay for bulls and what they're buying. While most bull buyers I talk to understand and use EPDs, they don't buy a bull because he has a high $B value. They buy him because they like his looks, he has traits that can improve their cow herd or help their calf crop, he performed well on test, or because the price is right. Or a balance of all those things.
Welcome to the Angus business. It's fun, can be profitable, and always a learning experience. Good luck to you all.....
Please understand that buying a $100,000 cow doesn't mean you will make $100,000 from her calves. You must have a market outlet for your cattle. Before you jump into the high dollar end of the Angus business, look at the sale venues available to you and see what cattle typically sell for there. If you're having your own production sale soon, ignore this post.
Understand that just because Express, Gardiners, etc., sell bulls for $10,000, you, again, are limited to markets available to you.
Don't chase numbers. Yes, breed for good EPDs. Never use a bull or buy a cow with less than breed average EPDs, at the least. Put a strong AI program into place.
Don't use unproven bulls. Some of those youngster's numbers will drop like a rock when the first two or three sire summaries come out.
Go to bull sales, Angus and others, too. Watch what bull buyers are willing to pay for bulls and what they're buying. While most bull buyers I talk to understand and use EPDs, they don't buy a bull because he has a high $B value. They buy him because they like his looks, he has traits that can improve their cow herd or help their calf crop, he performed well on test, or because the price is right. Or a balance of all those things.
Welcome to the Angus business. It's fun, can be profitable, and always a learning experience. Good luck to you all.....
Oh dear Frankie raises such discouraging red flags that I might be disuaded if I hadn't done my homework.
Below is an actual example of what one ranched did to improve his herd by using a single high $B bull and perhaps hoping to get that wonder cow ($B Comparison Dam To Offspring)
Dam Off Spring Enhancement
18.44 42.43
25.79 36.36
27.74 51.06 Some
30.51 50.29 Some
31.69 47.83
32.98 49.25
33.79 48.34
33.79 47.23
34.11 49.65
34.20 42.18
34.32 53.15 Some
34.36 52.43 Some
34.42 52.39 Some
36.41 47.61
36.47 49.70
36.47 49.70
37.47 53.25 Some
37.54 54.26 Some
37.90 51.27
37.94 51.05
38.70 47.72
39.11 48.23
40.16 56.15
42.40 56.70
47.94 59.63
47.99 52.87
51.55 54.33
51.66 62.20 Yes!, higher than either parent
54.70 58.27
I think that he did well, and sold all that he wanted to sell because he just drew 1000+ more straws for future use and semen sales.
I don't think that I will be disuaded by Frankie's red flags. I will proceed to try to get the $100,000 cow and then worry about how to market her. As to the other factors such as eye appeal, that goes anyway, but was not the issue - which was, Why would anyone buy a $100,000 cow? The answer is because they can afford to and wanted to rapidly improve the beef quality of their herd while making more in sales, more in semen sales and more from embryo sales. In the end its all about sales, and quality sells. New-bee
Frankie raises such discouraging red flags that I might be disuaded if I hadn't done my homework.Below is an actual example of what one ranched did to improve his herd by using a single high $B bull and perhaps hoping to get that wonder cow ($B Comparison Dam To Offspring)
Dam Off Spring Enhancement
18.44 42.43
25.79 36.36
27.74 51.06 Some
30.51 50.29 Some
31.69 47.83
32.98 49.25
33.79 48.34
33.79 47.23
34.11 49.65
34.20 42.18
34.32 53.15 Some
34.36 52.43 Some
34.42 52.39 Some
36.41 47.61
36.47 49.70
36.47 49.70
37.47 53.25 Some
37.54 54.26 Some
37.90 51.27
37.94 51.05
38.70 47.72
39.11 48.23
40.16 56.15
42.40 56.70
47.94 59.63
47.99 52.87
51.55 54.33
51.66 62.20 Yes!, higher than either parent
54.70 58.27
I think that he did well, and sold all that he wanted to sell because he just drew 1000+ more straws for future use and semen sales.
I don't think that I will be disuaded by Frankie's red flags. I will proceed to try to get the $100,000 cow and then worry about how to market her. As to the other factors such as eye appeal, that goes anyway, but was not the issue - which was, Why would anyone buy a $100,000 cow? The answer is because they can afford to and wanted to rapidly improve the beef quality of their herd while making more in sales, more in semen sales and more from embryo sales. In the end its all about sales, and quality sells.
New-beeBeing a newbie myself I get your game plan, but where do you plan on selling your calves? What is your marketing strategy? Do you already have buyers in place? Guess I would like to know more about what the back end or your plan is.
Oh, and you said you "learned" that your heifer had a bull calf, does that mean that someone called to tell you she had the calf?
Thanks
Oh, and you said you "learned" that your heifer had a bull calf, does that mean that someone called to tell you she had the calf?
Thanks
What some apparently see as unnecessary or overly conservative "red flags", actually appears more likely to be pretty sound advice from the perspective of those who have played this game through a couple of cycles of the cattle market. Perhaps those offering advice or questioning some portions of the "plans" which have been discussed aren't that smart, or are just too old or afraid to take the risk necessary for real success. However, it is also possible that the cautionary advice and war stories that have been offered in this long thread are more in line with the spirit of a Dad or the trusted friend who first advised you as a child to think for a bit before you decided to pee on that electric fence wire.
krenwic
Well-known member
To my knowledge, 2536 sold for $40,000. The $255,000 animal being referred to is GAR Integrity.
Although the $B index is uselful, what does it tell you about longevity, functionality, feet, disposition, udder quality, fertility, fleshing ability, spring of rib, muscling, ect.?
Please, before you get caught up on the numbers game, learn a little bit about the cattle. The computer has been known to lie, imagine that.
Proven pedigrees and cow families are much more reliable than the numbers. Don't let the numbers influence you into purchasing a bad animal and don't let the number discourage you from buying a good animal.
krenwic
Although the $B index is uselful, what does it tell you about longevity, functionality, feet, disposition, udder quality, fertility, fleshing ability, spring of rib, muscling, ect.?
Please, before you get caught up on the numbers game, learn a little bit about the cattle. The computer has been known to lie, imagine that.
Proven pedigrees and cow families are much more reliable than the numbers. Don't let the numbers influence you into purchasing a bad animal and don't let the number discourage you from buying a good animal.
krenwic
Oldtimer
Well-known member
You just hit it krenwic...And to me even the numbers aren't that shiny--While 2536 has good carcass quality epd's the qualities for easy keeping (efficiency) and calving ease are low- and the EPD for mature height is high....To me the best cows are those that are moderate across the board in all functions....
Cow doesn't do you any good if she can't make it on the range conditions you have...She wouldn't be one I'd want or want a bull out of especially with the tendency to throw height in the offspring......
Cow doesn't do you any good if she can't make it on the range conditions you have...She wouldn't be one I'd want or want a bull out of especially with the tendency to throw height in the offspring......
To Cheyene. I respond to you because you are preceptive. Indeed, the calf is at the farm 200 miles away where my step son lives. He is running the operation and networking locally while I network nationally. But your ability to pick up on "odd" remarks is vital to learning.
As to our marketing plan, it is developing as we learn more, and we have lots of time as we plan to sell our first offspring in the Fall of 2009 after they are ultrasounded and we know "who" they really are. And our strategy is to breed and sell the best. But being very small at the start, our basic strategy was to buy the peditree and animal (looks, structurally correct etc) and then breed for the numbers with the best bulls we can find. And those running the local auction have told us we bought the four best animals available at that auction, including our 2536 grandau who just gave us the 80# bull by 208, an 095 dau/ext grandau (960# @ 13 mo), a 4915 dau/ER grandau (1020# @ 11 mo), and an 8180-004 dau/365 grandau (980# @ 11 1/2 mo).
But of course, the problem is if we breed the best and only have four top animals to start with, then if we sell the offspring from these heifers because we want a reputation for selling the best, but then we have made little if any progress because we are selling what we need to keep in order to grow the herd in quantity and quality.
So after talking to some of the best operations in the country who recommended that we start small and focus our efforts, we have decided to do AI using five mature grade cows available from the residual family operation (Similar to Wehrman's large operation). So we plan to use the 2536 heifer (now cow) and the 095 heifer to obtain emproys to ET into these five commercial cows. That way we hope to assure getting a couple of higher $B heifers to keep while also getting above average bro's/sisters which we can take to market. This way we believe we can satisfy both objectives - expanding the herd by keeping quality while selling equivalent quality to build our reputation. And we will also get more "numbers" more quickly on the quality of these two heifers. Then the next year we would do similarly with our other two foundation heifers who we will AI this year without ET.
And of course, we should get extra embryo's for subsequent use/sale - another marketing decision.
And although some of the responders seem to dislike our 2536 dau, the auction action clearly identified her as the heifer of choice. Highest starting price by the auctioneer, most spirited bidding, most number of parties bidding, and highest lot sold at the auction.
My discussions about her with personel from Shamrock (7200+ ft altitude) regarding how to breed her was interesting as they had concerns because of her growth expectations which they felt was possibly to high for their likes. But she was born at 6000 ft, has run at 6000 ft for 2 1/2 years, has gone through two winters at temps down to -30+ degrees, forages in the family herd of approx 56 on 160 acres of acres with only 110 irrigated for half the summer and the rest rocky cedars - while carrying and delivering a calf unassisted - all without any visible stress. The herd feed is supplemented with grass and alfalfa/grass only - no corn or grains. She is build like a graceful "tank". Absolutely beautiful shape and lines, yet one of the deepest and thickest bodied ladies we have seen, and a standout in the 56 cow family herd. And they really liked the fact that she had been bred to 208 which they apparently feel is a good choice for hi altitude breeding - its a market we must acknowledge based upon our location.
And the little bull already shows a tendency for the same lines as momma. But of course in our small operation he is a problem because we can't use him to breed numbers higher than himself, and there are many bulls who will have better numbers - so it will be hard to justify using him early in our program, and it is problematical to keep all the good bulls. Yet, if he carries his mothers looks and depth/bredth, he may be just what we need to breed what the customer is "looking for". But we have time to figure all that out, and we need his ultrasound numbers before any decision would be rational to make - perhaps we will like him so much we will try to sell his semen. Who knows. Another marketing decision. But we do have an independent AI company I have been talking to right here in my home town.
But at any rate we will be using a Shamrock (Hi alt) bull on our 2536 grandau after we AT/Flush her to an even better not so high altitude Basin Angus bull.
And our 095 heifer will be AI/Flushed to a 2536 bull and then AI'd to the same Basin Angus bull used for ET's on our 2536 grandau. The last two of our foundation heifers will simply be AI'd to other good bulls including a different bull from 2536. So after the first year we will have three or more lines eminating from 2536 and three other lines from non-2536 line bulls - all hopefully with better numbers.
So our marketing strategy begins with a focus on quality, looks, pedigrees and numbers while generating multiples of our top animals so that we can keep what we need to grow forward while providing really high quality offspring to market.
We need to create the product after which we have at least another year before they will sell.
But thanks for asking - and by the way, would you share what your strategy is - we may profit from your plan and ideas. Always looking and listening so that we don't "pee on the electric fence".
Thanks New-bee
As to our marketing plan, it is developing as we learn more, and we have lots of time as we plan to sell our first offspring in the Fall of 2009 after they are ultrasounded and we know "who" they really are. And our strategy is to breed and sell the best. But being very small at the start, our basic strategy was to buy the peditree and animal (looks, structurally correct etc) and then breed for the numbers with the best bulls we can find. And those running the local auction have told us we bought the four best animals available at that auction, including our 2536 grandau who just gave us the 80# bull by 208, an 095 dau/ext grandau (960# @ 13 mo), a 4915 dau/ER grandau (1020# @ 11 mo), and an 8180-004 dau/365 grandau (980# @ 11 1/2 mo).
But of course, the problem is if we breed the best and only have four top animals to start with, then if we sell the offspring from these heifers because we want a reputation for selling the best, but then we have made little if any progress because we are selling what we need to keep in order to grow the herd in quantity and quality.
So after talking to some of the best operations in the country who recommended that we start small and focus our efforts, we have decided to do AI using five mature grade cows available from the residual family operation (Similar to Wehrman's large operation). So we plan to use the 2536 heifer (now cow) and the 095 heifer to obtain emproys to ET into these five commercial cows. That way we hope to assure getting a couple of higher $B heifers to keep while also getting above average bro's/sisters which we can take to market. This way we believe we can satisfy both objectives - expanding the herd by keeping quality while selling equivalent quality to build our reputation. And we will also get more "numbers" more quickly on the quality of these two heifers. Then the next year we would do similarly with our other two foundation heifers who we will AI this year without ET.
And of course, we should get extra embryo's for subsequent use/sale - another marketing decision.
And although some of the responders seem to dislike our 2536 dau, the auction action clearly identified her as the heifer of choice. Highest starting price by the auctioneer, most spirited bidding, most number of parties bidding, and highest lot sold at the auction.
My discussions about her with personel from Shamrock (7200+ ft altitude) regarding how to breed her was interesting as they had concerns because of her growth expectations which they felt was possibly to high for their likes. But she was born at 6000 ft, has run at 6000 ft for 2 1/2 years, has gone through two winters at temps down to -30+ degrees, forages in the family herd of approx 56 on 160 acres of acres with only 110 irrigated for half the summer and the rest rocky cedars - while carrying and delivering a calf unassisted - all without any visible stress. The herd feed is supplemented with grass and alfalfa/grass only - no corn or grains. She is build like a graceful "tank". Absolutely beautiful shape and lines, yet one of the deepest and thickest bodied ladies we have seen, and a standout in the 56 cow family herd. And they really liked the fact that she had been bred to 208 which they apparently feel is a good choice for hi altitude breeding - its a market we must acknowledge based upon our location.
And the little bull already shows a tendency for the same lines as momma. But of course in our small operation he is a problem because we can't use him to breed numbers higher than himself, and there are many bulls who will have better numbers - so it will be hard to justify using him early in our program, and it is problematical to keep all the good bulls. Yet, if he carries his mothers looks and depth/bredth, he may be just what we need to breed what the customer is "looking for". But we have time to figure all that out, and we need his ultrasound numbers before any decision would be rational to make - perhaps we will like him so much we will try to sell his semen. Who knows. Another marketing decision. But we do have an independent AI company I have been talking to right here in my home town.
But at any rate we will be using a Shamrock (Hi alt) bull on our 2536 grandau after we AT/Flush her to an even better not so high altitude Basin Angus bull.
And our 095 heifer will be AI/Flushed to a 2536 bull and then AI'd to the same Basin Angus bull used for ET's on our 2536 grandau. The last two of our foundation heifers will simply be AI'd to other good bulls including a different bull from 2536. So after the first year we will have three or more lines eminating from 2536 and three other lines from non-2536 line bulls - all hopefully with better numbers.
So our marketing strategy begins with a focus on quality, looks, pedigrees and numbers while generating multiples of our top animals so that we can keep what we need to grow forward while providing really high quality offspring to market.
We need to create the product after which we have at least another year before they will sell.
But thanks for asking - and by the way, would you share what your strategy is - we may profit from your plan and ideas. Always looking and listening so that we don't "pee on the electric fence".
Thanks
New-beekrenwic
Well-known member
Good marketing plan breeding the "foundation heifer" to the clean-up bull.
By the way, I think you already did that to the fence.
By the way, I think you already did that to the fence.
To Easy, Of course I am serious. We have four really good foundation heifers/cows with $B = 34, 37, 43 & 43+. It's just as easy to AI to a great bull as to a so-so one, or even to just use an averge herd bull. So we have selected our candidate bulls to force the offspring $B up above the $B=50 threshold while retaining and/or improving upon their great body shape and characteristics. My earlier example shows that with the proper bull selection you can move from the 30's into the 50's and even get partial genetic enhancements in just one generation. If one takes the time to study the various sale catalogues that fill our mail boxes each week, you can observe that many are moving in the same direction with large operations. Just look at the Riverbend catalogue which arrived Saturday. If they can do it, why can't the small rancher. Of course, our new 80# bull is not a great help, because he can only be used to breed to lower heifers/cows as we have no higher $B heifers/cows. If he had been a heifer, then we could have bred up to higher $B values with it with a $B 60's bull. That's why the $100,000 cow is so prized. If it's a heifer, no matter what it's $B, there are probably higher bulls, so you can push the numbers up the next breeding round. And with AI/Flush/ET you can create multiples so that you can get and keep some heifers while selling the bulls and the rest. The $100,000 cow is the key not the bull. But we have to work with what we have within our funding available. So it will take more time. But if we get even one heifer in the $B=50+ range, then we can expect to reach the mid to high 50's the next generation. Perhaps only a few, but you only need one to flush multiple times a year to the best bulls in the breed - which is what Wehrman has done with their GAr Precision 2536 cow. My two detractors not-withstanding, it's what is happening if you study what the big boys are doing. Any operation, no matter the size can isolate their best and begin the breed enhancement process even with only one heifer/cow. Will keep you posted. Perhaps we will hear from others of similar inclination. New-bee
New-beeNew-bee. I hope I didn't offend anyone with the "peeing on the hot wire" analogy. This thread was getting a little too serious!! I actually agree with many of your comments and your plans. No one can argue against setting big goals and working towards them. I have enjoyed reading your plans and well thought-out responses to the various criticisms and comments; and I truly respect your enthusiasm. I was concerned about your focus on single traits, as selection on that basis has doomed many to failure; but after your initial posts focused mostly on certain EPD's it does appear that you are actually looking at things from a broader perspective. However, I join several others on this site in still being curious about how you actually plan to motivate potential buyers to pay big money for your cattle at any point in the next twenty to thirty years. Based on the plan you described, those types of buyers are already spending big money today buying cattle that will have similar bloodlines, phenotype, and even EPD's as your cattle; but those buyers are also already customers of established herds which have the big name, or are at least spending 10's of thousand of dollars every year promoting their genetics which that buyer can ride along on. Are you just hoping for the freak calf, and then planning on calling a sale manager to do the selling for you. I have seen that work as a one time shot on a freak show calf East of the Mississippi but why do you think that will work on a freak production calf in your country? You appear to be hoping to piggy-back off someone else's genetics to earn the reputation necessary to reach that high-end market. If so, how will you actually do that without the deep pockets which are typically necessary to take that type of a shortcut? You have talked several times about earning a reputation, but how will you build that reputation in a time frame that is apparently planned to be much shorter than the 2 to 5 decades of stubborn dedication to a vision and several years of breaking even at best which most in the production cattle end of this industry have had to endure to earn their reputations? If you plan to go down the long road of actually earning a reputation without big money, why would you be tempted to actually buy a $100,000 cow in the next decade or so, or more realistically to actually spend money flushing based on using her line of freakish genetics or numbers, when the lessons of previous operators starting out is that the successful ones are smart or lucky enough to figure out where the business will be 20 to 30 years from now, and then simply get there a year or two ahead of everyone else? I know my questions look like I am prejudging your answers, but these are actually the issues I faced 25 years ago getting into this business. I really am curious if you have a different prespective given the differences in our markets and environments.
jscunn
Well-known member
Great post Lawman. Newbee you should listen to him.
I want to emphasize one point again. What is going to make your calves special??? Open up any sale catalog the genetics are the same.
If you are in the high country you have other issues
Brisket Disease, PAP. I am from the south, so I dont know very much about it, but I do know that some of the popular genetics will not work at altitude. Remember you might not be at altitude but some of your customers might..
I am not trying to be negative, this industry needs every energetic rancher it can find. Just want you to think your whole marketing program through not just the high dollar sales.
I want to emphasize one point again. What is going to make your calves special??? Open up any sale catalog the genetics are the same.
If you are in the high country you have other issues
Brisket Disease, PAP. I am from the south, so I dont know very much about it, but I do know that some of the popular genetics will not work at altitude. Remember you might not be at altitude but some of your customers might..
I am not trying to be negative, this industry needs every energetic rancher it can find. Just want you to think your whole marketing program through not just the high dollar sales.
racekannon
Well-known member
Warning == Single Trait Selection == Wreak
Newbee,
I don't know much but I do know this. While there are a lot of 6 figure females being sold, most of them are within the trader crowd. The non-trader $100,000+ females are few and very far between because there are very few who are willing to take the risk of producing that value out of the cow. Just out of curiousity, how many breeding cattle have you sold in the past year? Good Luck
I don't know much but I do know this. While there are a lot of 6 figure females being sold, most of them are within the trader crowd. The non-trader $100,000+ females are few and very far between because there are very few who are willing to take the risk of producing that value out of the cow. Just out of curiousity, how many breeding cattle have you sold in the past year? Good Luck
