ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
thats the dam truth,, there wouldnt even be a CAB. if that were the case :lol2:Jake":16ysoygc said:
Which terminal bull I should use?
- Thread starter Taurus
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Rowdy
Well-known member
I don't think it's an Angus trait- I think it's a frame score 3-4 trait. That and 8" REAs.
You're right there aren't many that have great ww and poor yw. On the other hand, there are many bulls that have average ww and great yw. The latter are terrible choices for commercial guys.
I would want the highest of both. This all started with my objection to selecting "moderate" bulls as terminal sires.
You're right there aren't many that have great ww and poor yw. On the other hand, there are many bulls that have average ww and great yw. The latter are terrible choices for commercial guys.
I would want the highest of both. This all started with my objection to selecting "moderate" bulls as terminal sires.
Jake
Well-known member
Rowdy":236goiuh said:
Hey looks like we have come to agree on all counts. :clap:
AussieLim
Well-known member
Geez I know why they call u Rowdy!
You really don't read people's posts properly. Our calves are sold at 10mths up slaughter. No more growing once dead, hence late maturing, large frame would be inefficient for my operation.
Granted I accept that u are breeding an animal targeting the feedlot sector & you will need some frame (coat hanger to hang meat on) and a bit of late maturity so they don't lay fat down to early.
The moral of this post is one type of cattle doesn't fit all markets and frame isn't king for a lot of markets, so preaching what works in your backyard isn't the be all & end all!
My Limo X Angus fit my early finish grass/milk market & if weaned correctly will grow on in a short fed (feedlot) market.
Take the time to know your markets & if your selling weaners in a sale that are bought by feedlots you are kidding yourself if you think they don't keep a record of who's calves perform & whose are poorly bred. That's how you get repeat buyers year after year & build demand.
This reputation & demand i have seen first hand with our breeding ewes that we sell in a feature sale. Our ewes now always make $50-$100 per head more than the average.
You really don't read people's posts properly. Our calves are sold at 10mths up slaughter. No more growing once dead, hence late maturing, large frame would be inefficient for my operation.
Granted I accept that u are breeding an animal targeting the feedlot sector & you will need some frame (coat hanger to hang meat on) and a bit of late maturity so they don't lay fat down to early.
The moral of this post is one type of cattle doesn't fit all markets and frame isn't king for a lot of markets, so preaching what works in your backyard isn't the be all & end all!
My Limo X Angus fit my early finish grass/milk market & if weaned correctly will grow on in a short fed (feedlot) market.
Take the time to know your markets & if your selling weaners in a sale that are bought by feedlots you are kidding yourself if you think they don't keep a record of who's calves perform & whose are poorly bred. That's how you get repeat buyers year after year & build demand.
This reputation & demand i have seen first hand with our breeding ewes that we sell in a feature sale. Our ewes now always make $50-$100 per head more than the average.
Rowdy
Well-known member
I've read every word you've written. It's the typos within your txt- like where you say, " Our calves are sold at 10mths up slaughter" that create the confusion. Though these are words, the sentence lacks the syntax to be viewed as useful information to the recipient.
Most importantly, you should never use the word terminal as a type descriptor when discussing a grass fed animal as almost all animals used in a grass fed system are maternal in type.
Moderate and terminal as descriptive adjectives are literally opposites.
Most importantly, you should never use the word terminal as a type descriptor when discussing a grass fed animal as almost all animals used in a grass fed system are maternal in type.
Moderate and terminal as descriptive adjectives are literally opposites.
AussieLim
Well-known member
Hmm! Small minded again!
Globally- not just US! There are Terminal sires used in grass based systems.
Terminal= bred for meat. All progeny go to slaughter.
Maternal= bred as replacements. Only steers & cull heifers go to slaughter.
Get out of your paddock & take a look. I have lived, worked, studied, judged (both hoof & hook) & visited both the US, Canada & Mexico on numerous occasions & have a far understanding of your systems and USDA grids. I can see where u are coming from but your way isn't the only way.
I'm glad it works for you & your market. In Australia we also have a many diverse markets which require different types and sometimes breeds of cattle.
I don't want to argue with you- just pointing this out.
Globally- not just US! There are Terminal sires used in grass based systems.
Terminal= bred for meat. All progeny go to slaughter.
Maternal= bred as replacements. Only steers & cull heifers go to slaughter.
Get out of your paddock & take a look. I have lived, worked, studied, judged (both hoof & hook) & visited both the US, Canada & Mexico on numerous occasions & have a far understanding of your systems and USDA grids. I can see where u are coming from but your way isn't the only way.
I'm glad it works for you & your market. In Australia we also have a many diverse markets which require different types and sometimes breeds of cattle.
I don't want to argue with you- just pointing this out.
Rowdy
Well-known member
Do me a favor and list the physical characteristics associated with a bull you would described as terminal and then do me a favor and list the physical characteristics associated with a bull you would describe as maternal by type.
A maternally oriented bull can be used as a terminally in the literal sense that none of his progeny will be retained but I don't know that that makes him a 'terminal sire.'
I don't know about where you live but here, only maternally oriented bulls are used in grass finishing systems as these type are earlier maturing, better marbling, and finish sooner.
Some of the best Shorthorns in the world are in Australia. You're lucky to have access to those genetics.
Shorthorn Beef
SHORTHORNS TOP RNA WEIGHT GAIN COMPETITION
By James Nason
Courtesy Beef Central
A pen of purebred Shorthorn steers bred by Godfrey and Spencer Morgan, The Grove, Condamine, has posted an average daily gain of 2.75kg over 100 days to win the weight gain component of the 2013 RNA Brisbane Show Paddock to Palate competition.
The weight gain competition is the first section of the annual Sturrock Trophy, regarded as the most comprehensive beef supply chain competition in Australia.
All entries received two shots of MH + IBR vaccinations prior to feeding to assist with the prevention of Bovine Respiratory Disease, as well as HGP implants at induction. Each entry comprised seven steers, with the final weight gain result taken from the best performing six steers in each pen.
The 100 day weight gain results were revealed at a field day at Grassdale on Tuesday.
The highest average daily gain (ADG) recorded across the 69 pens across the 100 days was 2.75kg, achieved by a pen of Shorthorn steers entered by Godfrey and Spencer Morgan, The Grove, Condamine.
The Morgans have had a stunning record of success in the performance-based competition, having won the overall championship no less than eight times since it commenced in 1998.
Scott and Ann-Maree Attwool's Woolcott Shorthorns from Meandarra, the winner of last year's weight gain section, shared fourth place with a pen of Shorthorns averaging 2.7kg/day.
All steers were fed a high-energy, high protein (72pc) ration, which for the first time this year included 'dehulled' cotton seed, a process that has been pioneered by Mort & Co and is unique to lotfeeding in Australia.
http://www.beefcentral.com/feedlot/arti ... click+here
A maternally oriented bull can be used as a terminally in the literal sense that none of his progeny will be retained but I don't know that that makes him a 'terminal sire.'
I don't know about where you live but here, only maternally oriented bulls are used in grass finishing systems as these type are earlier maturing, better marbling, and finish sooner.
Some of the best Shorthorns in the world are in Australia. You're lucky to have access to those genetics.
Shorthorn Beef
SHORTHORNS TOP RNA WEIGHT GAIN COMPETITION
By James Nason
Courtesy Beef Central
A pen of purebred Shorthorn steers bred by Godfrey and Spencer Morgan, The Grove, Condamine, has posted an average daily gain of 2.75kg over 100 days to win the weight gain component of the 2013 RNA Brisbane Show Paddock to Palate competition.
The weight gain competition is the first section of the annual Sturrock Trophy, regarded as the most comprehensive beef supply chain competition in Australia.
All entries received two shots of MH + IBR vaccinations prior to feeding to assist with the prevention of Bovine Respiratory Disease, as well as HGP implants at induction. Each entry comprised seven steers, with the final weight gain result taken from the best performing six steers in each pen.
The 100 day weight gain results were revealed at a field day at Grassdale on Tuesday.
The highest average daily gain (ADG) recorded across the 69 pens across the 100 days was 2.75kg, achieved by a pen of Shorthorn steers entered by Godfrey and Spencer Morgan, The Grove, Condamine.
The Morgans have had a stunning record of success in the performance-based competition, having won the overall championship no less than eight times since it commenced in 1998.
Scott and Ann-Maree Attwool's Woolcott Shorthorns from Meandarra, the winner of last year's weight gain section, shared fourth place with a pen of Shorthorns averaging 2.7kg/day.
All steers were fed a high-energy, high protein (72pc) ration, which for the first time this year included 'dehulled' cotton seed, a process that has been pioneered by Mort & Co and is unique to lotfeeding in Australia.
http://www.beefcentral.com/feedlot/arti ... click+here
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
Rowdy you are talking when you should be listening.
Rowdy
Well-known member
Is that the strawman argument talking again or are you actually disputing something I've said?
I
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AussieLim
Well-known member
Without continuing this argument I will answer your questions:
Perceived Maturnal type:
Long, extended, easy keeping, milky & structurally functional. I also like deep bodied, capacity type females as at the end of the day u still breed em for meat even in a Maturnal herd as you put it.
Terminal Sire:
Heavy muscled, long & deep body with loads of capacity and red meat. Depending on the target market will change on the desire for frame & maturity pattern.
Now I haven't mentioned EPDs but this is really where you can determine whether a sire is a steer breeder or a replacement breeder. There are many maternal traits you can refer to.
Milk, Scrotal, Fat, CE, Mature Cow Wt. etc.
Terminal EPDs= growth, carcass & fat dependent on your target market & finishing systems.
To summaries, you can't put cattle in a box. You need to consider market, environment and your pastures or feeding regime.
For the record when we speak of grass pastures in Australia (which makes up for a vast % of our finished domestic beef) we're not talking grazing native grasses in the hills or back blocks. Due to our vast lands many beef producers have highly tuned grazing systems to graze alfalfa, ryegrass and brassicas efficiently maximizing cattle growth and pasture response. Our young calves often put on 2kgs a day off mum & grass.
One other thing: Shorthorns are regarded as a maternal breed here as they are milky, but they don't do much on the meat yield side so are often cross bred to something else.
Good luck with your Maternal herd. I hope the end user is pleased with your progenys performance.
Perceived Maturnal type:
Long, extended, easy keeping, milky & structurally functional. I also like deep bodied, capacity type females as at the end of the day u still breed em for meat even in a Maturnal herd as you put it.
Terminal Sire:
Heavy muscled, long & deep body with loads of capacity and red meat. Depending on the target market will change on the desire for frame & maturity pattern.
Now I haven't mentioned EPDs but this is really where you can determine whether a sire is a steer breeder or a replacement breeder. There are many maternal traits you can refer to.
Milk, Scrotal, Fat, CE, Mature Cow Wt. etc.
Terminal EPDs= growth, carcass & fat dependent on your target market & finishing systems.
To summaries, you can't put cattle in a box. You need to consider market, environment and your pastures or feeding regime.
For the record when we speak of grass pastures in Australia (which makes up for a vast % of our finished domestic beef) we're not talking grazing native grasses in the hills or back blocks. Due to our vast lands many beef producers have highly tuned grazing systems to graze alfalfa, ryegrass and brassicas efficiently maximizing cattle growth and pasture response. Our young calves often put on 2kgs a day off mum & grass.
One other thing: Shorthorns are regarded as a maternal breed here as they are milky, but they don't do much on the meat yield side so are often cross bred to something else.
Good luck with your Maternal herd. I hope the end user is pleased with your progenys performance.
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
Most off it is just rattling on just to be rattling. All breeds have terminal and maternal lines.
Rowdy
Well-known member
Don't do much on the meat yield??? Did you just miss the part where Shorthorns had the highest average daily gain of all breeds in the bull test in your country??? I even posted the link.
I agree RBB, and with the glimpse of any individual within any breed, I can tell you whether the individual is terminally or maternally oriented. With the quality cattle you've bred, I'm certain you have acquired this same 'skill.'
I agree RBB, and with the glimpse of any individual within any breed, I can tell you whether the individual is terminally or maternally oriented. With the quality cattle you've bred, I'm certain you have acquired this same 'skill.'
AussieLim
Well-known member
This is going no where.
I agree with RBB.
I did see that feedlot trial and that is an amazing result for SH. Pity not many are feedlot in this country.
If you don't go much on yield how do you ever make money out of breeding beef cattle.
Yield even dictates live body weight and weight in king
I agree with RBB.
I did see that feedlot trial and that is an amazing result for SH. Pity not many are feedlot in this country.
If you don't go much on yield how do you ever make money out of breeding beef cattle.
Yield even dictates live body weight and weight in king
Taurus
Well-known member
Well I know for sure....I ain't using shorthorn bulls over my cows!
denvermartinfarms
Well-known member
Now that's one thing you have said that I can agree with.Taurus":su34ojjt said:
Rowdy
Well-known member
Blah blah blah the performance speaks for itself. The Canadian SH bull I just imported had a 725lb WW and a 1306 YW. Scanned an actual 15 sq " eye at 360 days. I have 4 bulls going in a bull test in Gainesville, TX Nov 1. I can't wait to see their face when the Durhams just embarrass the competition. You can blah blah about color all you want but last time I checked, there were no color indicators on my close outs.
houstoncutter
Well-known member
Rowdy, if you dress out a carload of Limousin steers versus a carload of Shorthorn steers, at the end of the day your gonna have a whole lot more fat in the barrel and less meat out of the Shorthorns. Limousin, Simmental, Gelbvieh and a whole lot of other continental breeds can finish on grass. It just has to be a high quality graze. The English breeds have a advantage grazing lesser quality foodstuffs. Brahman and Longhorn can thrive on even less quality grasses. One of the main reasons a F-1 Tiger can kick ass anywhere they go.
AussieLim
Well-known member
houstoncutter":3lx1eqfw said:
Agree with this statement.
Our warm environment enables us to finish Continental X British calves off of grass where often straight bred British heifers would run to fat. It's not for everyone I'd admit but so isn't straight SH.
A lot of the SH in Australia are big long legged things that should of left when we did away with the bullock teams as a means to shift heavy things. SH make great cows when crossed with something else!
I await the one eyed reply....
Taurus
Well-known member
Color wasn't the problem. I tried Shorthorns and it's not working out for me. They gave me all height and our angus calves outweight them despite of the shorthorn calves being a month & 1/2 older than angus calves.
Rowdy
Well-known member
Lets see the reg # of the bull you supposedly used? What were you complaints?
